“Leaving Neverland”, Hey We Never Left It!

 

“He told me he loved me, and that’s how love is expressed”

Jimmy Safechuck, one of many boys befriended by a paedophile who hid in full view.

 

“After a while I realized there was a pattern. Every twelve months there was a new boy in his life”.

Wade Robson’s mother, one of many who chose to believe because it was convenient.

 

I watched the above with a heavy feeling, especially when it came to details of sexual involvement.  I kept thinking about my boy and what I would do to any man who would so much as just even harbor an idea of making him a sex toy.

No little girls in Michael’s fantasies. Having come to know all that I know now – I have no doubt it took place. You see… for a few years now and from my observations of the things that happen in Cambodia and the rest of SE Asia, I came to the conclusion that if a man takes an interest in underage children’s welfare – there is an unclean ulterior motive of an obscene nature. It is horrifyingly sad, but also horrifyingly true. I mean.. do YOU really have an interest in other people’s kids to a point where you would give them vast amounts of your wealth for no return? Really? Are you THAT altruistic? I personally have no interest in smooching over children, and that comes from a woman. They are just…. children. One day they will become adults, and screwed up adults too. You lot will make sure of that.

I may be a cynical old bat, but come on… when was the last time a stranger did something completely altruistically big for YOU? my guess is – never.

The repeating stories of men from all walks of life fucking little kids simply illustrate the deep animal state of us which is governed by only ONE force – sex. It takes a few (or a dozen) NatGeo Wild documentaries, coupled with conversations with people that I know about their past experiences, coupled with my own personal experiences, coupled with the recorded history of humankind to see clearly that an overwhelming majority of human children went through SOME form of abuse from adult human monkeys, be it sexual molestation, physical punishment or psychological battering.

If you wander about those school shootings… well. You reap what you sow, human kids. The solution is two-fold: accept violence as a natural occurrence among animal species OR as part of a more evolved conscious race – stop being violent.

Simple. Now, from your experience of the world…. which solution is at play?

Great Apes tend to copulate many times a day in the wild. It is a form of bonding as well as asserting one’s social status, as not every male can fuck every female; there are rules. Copulation between Great Apes takes place up to fifty times a day for an individual male, with no discrimination between young and old, male and female, family members or not. All is fair game. You need to ask yourself how far we as human species have really walked from that? How far? And what happens every day behind closed doors across cultures and geographical divides?

Another point is about the POWER of brainwashing. For little kids it has another term: grooming. A Stockholm syndrome scenario where the groomed kid bonds with their abuser, and the effects of the abuse will become known many years later.  For their parents – star struck. And this brings me to observe the obvious: no one has ever taught human beings to think for themselves, and an overwhelming majority have no intuitive capacity to stay away from the fake and potentially damaging scenarios of involvement with other more powerful individuals. Why? Ah well… human greed. What could Michael Jackson provide for those ordinary Australian families in this sordid unconscious exchange? Everything that humans desire: the VIP treatment, money, gifts, and above all – the feeling of being special. Oh yeah… don’t you crave being special for someone? And if that someone is a powerful, much admired God-like human creature – how much are you willing to trade (often without being aware) for his/her advances?

Ptttfff… they are only as powerful as YOU see them, as you afford them the power.

All of this reminds me… for months now I wanted to start writing a series of small articles on the most powerful force in Life and Death – SEX. How it is so powerful, what happens in the world as a result of this insane, biologically programmed drive and how it makes us no better than a couple of dogs who fuck in the street.

I wish someone sat me down and told me all, no holds barred, when I was ten.  The men in the documentary chose to speak about their Michal Jackson experience only after they had their own children and realized just how vulnerable a child’s mind is, and how easy it is to take advantage of human children. They received no financial compensation for speaking out, not as far as I am aware. Brave, considering that the pop idol’s fans are now enraged in their ignorance and are vying for blood.

Barbra Streisand comes out with a very different perspective on Leaving Neverland. In a nutshell, her take seems to be: hey, was it really all that bad?

“Oh absolutely,” said Streisand, when asked if she believed the allegations of sexual abuse made in the film. “That was too painful.” That being said, the singer also seems extremely sympathetic to Michael Jackson, to the point that she suggests the alleged child abuse is in some way mitigated by the fact “it didn’t kill them.” Explained Streisand, “His sexual needs were his sexual needs, coming from whatever childhood he has or whatever DNA he has. You can say ‘molested’, but those children, as you heard say [the grown-up Robson and Safechuck], they were thrilled to be there.” Said Streisand, “They both married and they both have children, so it didn’t kill them.”

https://www.vulture.com/2019/03/barbra-streisand-on-michael-jackson-leaving-neverland-claims.html

Controversial? Sure. It didn’t kill them. All I can say is this: as a seven year-old I wouldn’t have asked to have sex with a thirty-year old man, or ANY man/woman, for that matter. It just wouldn’t be where I was in the developmental stage at seven years of age. So Barbra… how about you?

Macaulay Culkin made no comment about the documentary, even though the film claims he was that ‘new kid on the block’ usurping Jackson’s attention away from other boys and their families.

And a final thought… if you believe in the concept of karma – wake up and face the music. Many a dictator died peacefully in his sleep with no crime punished, and the same goes for human ‘idols’ of every creed. Look at the facts, not at your wishful thinking. No one is  routinely getting a karma stick for their bad deeds. Some turn careless, cocky or unlucky and get swiped by other humans. Some get away with it all and go to grave unchallenged. Above all… is there such an idol lurking in your life right now, unrecognized by you and hence more dangerous for your psyche and an overall state of wellbeing? Look closely, they come in many guises.

In other words… while ya’ll looking for ‘alternative’ realities and getting ‘enlightened’ – you are not looking at real Life and are lost instead in an ‘enlightenment’ arcade game. One more game.

Here is a link to the documentary on YouTube. This one is with Spanish subtitles, but there are more links just in English. it comes to sexual molestation parts at around forty minutes into the documentary:

 

Note: The Spanish subtitles video was removed from YouTube.


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232 thoughts on ““Leaving Neverland”, Hey We Never Left It!

  1. So all of you who speak of ‘The message is important, not the messenger’…… or ”Who cares about the man and what he is/isn’t. It’s the books!!!””

    …. apply that same principle to Michael’s music “Hey, who cares about kids? The MUSIC is good!!! Who cares about what the musician does in his private life?””

    Tastes bad in that context, huh??…..

    Morons.

  2. From somewhere on the Net comes this comment about “Homo Sapiens: To be sapient means to know the difference between good and evil, to discern between right and wrong. So a sapient human (Homo sapiens) knows the difference between right and wrong.”
    OK, we’ll run with that for the moment.
    Right=dualistic-human-derived morality.
    Wrong=dualistic-human-derived immorality.
    (Yeah, I know… circular reasoning: right wrong dualistic human-derived, round and round…)
    Anyway,
    We Sapiens today tend to think we are more clever, cleaned up and polished, proudly sitting atop the head of our Lady Justice statue.
    Now throw in some basic instincts – survival, reproduction and curiosity – and temper them with our feedback mechanisms – seek pleasure, avoid pain.
    Result? Same old same old, except now we have hand grenades & nuclear bombs in our back pockets.
    Unless some weird thing happens and scores of people wake up, I see little reason to hope that our prefrontal cortex + technology will outrun our lizard brain + technology.
    Maybe the best thing that could happen would be for the technology part to suddenly disappear. Give the Sapiens prefrontal another chance to evolve a little more sans nukes, and catch up.

    1. Same old same old -> dumb monkeys with smart phones.

      The talk of ‘collective awakening’ belongs in the sphere of wishful thinking. It is not happening. Why? Because, as Mr. McKenna says, “To what do we awake?”

      To the same old bullshit, but he couldn’t put this in one sentence for the sake of producing a full-sized book.

      1. Human Nature is set in stone. Forever. As a comparison.. can one expect a canine to suddenly gain a more developed frontal lobe and start thinking as a human does? No. The biology prohibits that. In the same way a human brain acts exactly within its biological capacity and no more. I am not expecting miracles there.

      2. In your writing there was an assumption that if all wake up – it would somehow improve the world.
      Not so. Clarity does not change one’s intrinsic nature. Once an asshole – is always an asshole, and compassion towards another is not a product of being awake. Even if 90% of population woke up we would face exactly what exists now.

      Nothing would change. That’s a realistic point of view, not an idealised version of the Human Condition.

      We are apes with a slightly improved cognitive function.

      1. Hola EM – You said, “Even if 90% of population woke up we would face exactly what exists now. Nothing would change. That’s a realistic point of view, not an idealised version of the Human Condition.”
        You know, I’ve been pondering two questions for 14+ years now, ever since my own “Done” happened and the blinders were permanently knocked off my eyes: What, exactly has changed inside? And what difference does it actually make?
        Now, you suggest that the intrinsic nature is unchanged with awakening, and it cannot change. I’d say I agree with you about 99%.
        What’s the 1%?
        As you said, it’s Clarity. Virtually all psychological desire (as opposed to biological desire) that occurs in the human world stems from some degree of illusion. That illusion (non-clarity) creates internal friction; cognitive dissonance with What Is.
        So commences the desire to null out that friction, or at least manipulate it to some other desired end. Unbelievable amounts of time, money, energy and brainpower is exerted, and more drama created, in the name of trying to dull or null that friction.
        When clarity came, it’s been my experience that that friction completely vaporized, and my internal psychic “engines” that manufactured and perpetuated all manner of frictions ran out of oil, overheated and seized up permanently as well.
        Net result: Unbelievable amounts of time, money, energy, brainpower and drama disengaged from BS. Freed up for other uses, or maybe no use at all.
        So from my POV, the Clarity that has presented itself offers a completely new way of seeing and being. If so motivated, a bunch of truly awakened human animals could and would work with their unchanged animal nature, but now through their Clarity instead of illusion.
        Net result of that? I have no idea. Maybe a whole new way of doing and being on a larger scale. Then again, I suppose there’s a pretty good chance that the same fuckups would continue as before, except now we’d be better able to laugh off the absurdity of expecting any better result, and go our separate ways.
        After all, this is a kindergarten planet for newly self-aware animals, and perhaps that’s all it’s ever meant to be. Once you’re Done and graduate from kindergarten, maybe you move on to other realms where you get to play with your newfound “clarity,” fuck things up for yourself over several eons, then eventually master it and move on again…?

        1. Robert, I agree that psychological desire butted against what is – creates internal friction. I am just not as optimistic as you are on the possibility that a so called enlightened human is a creature of a different order.

          To illustrate… imagine Michael Jackson becoming such a being. Would Clarity remove his desire to have sex with underage boys? Because even as an unenlightened man he understood that his actions were damaging, i.e. he had enough Clarity on that. Humans DO have an inherent sense of what is right and what is wrong. ALL of them, including the most hardened criminals and even psychopaths, with their lack of emotional cognition.

          Do you really believe that Clarity and seeing Reality as is – would remove the one most important drive every human has: desire to survive in the most comfortable, interesting and fear free way? But that means different things for different people.

          For Jackson that included fucking young boys. For you, me – it may be something else, depending on our respective individual natures.

          So no, I am not at all optimistic on the subject of doing things ‘a whole new way’. Why? Humans are also cowards. From the documentary you can see that a few boys’ claims were silenced simply because people were afraid to speak out OR had something to gain from the situation.

          If they were motivated by fear or gain before Clarity – they will be motivated by fear and gain after. Enlightenment doesn’t grant supernatural powers, and one can still be gunned down.

          Consider that.

          1. “I am just not as optimistic as you are on the possibility that a so called enlightened human is a creature of a different order.”

            Yeah, understood. It’s extremely easy to be extremely cynical looking back at this world post-Clarity. I find it fun to spice things up with a little temporary switch into optimism from time to time for some diversion… 😉

            “Humans DO have an inherent sense of what is right and what is wrong. ALL of them, including the most hardened criminals and even psychopaths, with their lack of emotional cognition.”

            I like this. I too have spent a fair amount of time looking at the psychopath thing. Fascinating. In fact, I find the Clear State to have a number of similar traits as the psycho state. In the Clear State, now stripped of all emotion-stimulated attachment reactivations, there’s a certain kind of non-caring irrelevance about scores of things that previously “mattered to me” and were “serious.” The outward result is what looks to other people like zero empathy on my part. But from my POV, it’s simply like watching children get all worked up about this or that trivial thing, and now I know better. So I patiently (or not so patiently) watch, and throw in a monkey wrench at opportune moments. JM mentioned the children thing, and I instantly jibed with that.
            [BTW, I first came across SE:TDT literally weeks after my own Done moment. Was excellent timing. Helped tremendously to kinda confirm and validate all the shit I had just gone through.]
            So yeah, that’s an interesting way to see it. The psycho DOES know right from wrong, he just doesn’t care… cuz he can’t.

            “I am not at all optimistic on the subject of doing things ‘a whole new way’. Why? Humans are also cowards.”

            Cowards. Yeah, natural to avoid pain. But worse is the “fear of authority” thing that runs very deep, genetically as well as psychologically. We humans have been “selected” for obedience to authority for countless generations. As well, we’ve been selected to love our Stockholm Syndrome for as many generations. This guy says it beautifully. I think you’ll like it: http://www.jakubw.com/2013/12/why-almost-everyone-believes-in.html

            Funny, though… from time to time something pops up to remind me of our latent potential. Just this morning a friend sent me this: https://youtu.be/6KCOY_2w0u4 Maiden voyage of Ocean Warrior, newest ship in the Sea Shepherd fleet. seashepherdglobal.org
            Whatever your POV about these folks, I like their motto: “Direct Action.”
            No BS, no prevaricating about this or that moral issue or possible bad outcome. Just choose Right or Wrong and go for it. Direct Action. Now.
            An attitude like this makes our time here worthwhile, I’d say.

          2. Robert, I am optimistic as far as the will to live goes. I am not optimistic as far as Human Condition goes. Hope that’s clearer.

            I completely relate to and mentioned this somewhere too – Clarity brings the elements of psychopathy with it, you are correct. But ONLY a degree, as one realises the importance of own welbeing first and foremost. However, the manipulative side was not acquired by me. Just not in my DNA I guess. And yes, my online correspondents also accused me of lack of empathy. People mix emotionalism with empathy, hence, the confusion.

            Fear of authority is EXACTLY why most people remain silent on a vast majority of issues.

            Good to hear from you. As I hold court, so to speak, on my own here, it is very rare that someone who had worked through it all and figured it out would pop in and say ‘hello’.

            Thank you.

          3. “he understood that his actions were damaging, i.e. he had enough Clarity on that”

            Is it Clarity, though?

            From our limited POV what’s right and wrong seems pretty damn obvious. But do we see the bigger picture?

            Judas’s case for example. He fucked up, he’s the bad guy. And yet, without Judas there’s no Jesus’s story.

            or

            Let’s assume for the sake of argument that our true nature is goodness, love and all that. How can we discover this, without experiencing (and embracing) what we are not in the first place?

            Jed says: “whatever, including all the very worst shit, is right”. Now, this sounds safe enough. What if we make it more graphic? Raping children is right. Makes you feel pretty damn uncomfortable, doesn’t it? Maybe this is what “Deathbed Jed” will invite us to question? What is wrong with raping children?

            Now, you don’t want to put that in the book that everyone can read, and while you’re holding position of some sort of authority. Our ego-minds are always ready to twist every teaching for their own benefit/survival.

            And yet, if we want to dismantle our egoic conditioning, we have to question ALL our believes, including those that make us cringe. Don’t we?

          4. It is Clarity when one is clearly aware of the fact that what they are doing is wrong, and Michael WAS aware of that.

            Clarity is an attribute of the human mind and can be present in any human in various life situations.

            The bigger picture is: as an individual human animal you will die. In that respect, how you lived – makes no difference whatsoever. Every human is consigned to the dustbin at the very first breath. But.

            The question is whether one is an animal, and then we can mindlessly follow our animal instincts: rape, pillage, plunder, beat our chests like an alpha King Kong in order to subdue the tribe and get on top of the pile. Because animals at large are like that in the name of survival.

            OR… we can realise that the gift of self awareness (and the curse as the other side of the coin) can lift us out of that animal state.
            Animals have no choice. We do. There is plenty to go around and nothing to fight for because human ingenuity CREATES own resources. We do, animals can’t.

            On his deathbed Jed would name this world as it is: Hell. He would say exactly what I have been saying for months, and what people perceive as too dark to even contemplate seriously.

            However.. remember that even in prison people manage to carve out a resemblance of a good life. It is possible for an individual to live unencumbered.

            Everything is relative.
            All depends on perspective.

          5. Joanna – “Raping children is right.”
            Maybe a better word would be ‘appropriate’ or ‘apropros’? Even that word does not suffice…
            Saying right or wrong makes it a subjective moral judgment.
            Saying ‘apropros’ is like saying ‘this is the next appropriate thing that needs to happen, in order to fully play out the evolving situation for everyone involved.’
            Sure, from the POV of the ‘victim,’ it sucks and seems completely wrong. But there are always countless variables, considerations and previous chains of events that are not known by any observer, and often are not even known by the perp and the victim.

        2. “fuck things up for yourself over several eons, then eventually master it and move on again…?”

          Even if you as a freshly minted clear human do not fuck things up – others around you will, and you will have to deal with that. So no, life becomes inner burden free, but not without the burden that the world places on your plate in the course of living. This cannot be avoided, unless one lives in total isolation.

          Eons will not happen. Fifty, sixty, seventy, eighty and some years. Then the curtain falls, the end of the show.

          We don’t live long enough in order to learn well, so we never really learn well enough.

          1. The “eons” thing was meant to apply as to what we might be doing in future incarnations after this one, having graduated from Kindergarten Earth, not needing to come back this way again. Maybe “time” is a whole ‘nother thing in that new realm.

            Re: other humans making life difficult… Yep! That’s exactly why I cultivate a pleasant isolation pretty much all the time. I imagine you do the same. Caring for the astounding beauty of Nature is my main reason-to-be nowadays. She’s the only thing that is non-judgmental, non-irritating and always uplifting.

            BTW, I’m very happy to have found your site. I really appreciate you, and your POV. Reminds me of something Señor McKenna wrote about Brett… let me see… here it is, “I was really starting to like her. Straight talk in plain English. I had never seen anyone like her before and I found her comforting. It’s like thinking you’re the only one of something, and then there’s another one and it makes the world a different place: slightly less alien. Not like you’re connected, but like maybe you could be.”
            So yeah… nice to connect w/you.

          2. Thank you. I expressed somewhere on this site that it is good to know there are others. And don’t get me wrong – those others may be natural born killers, but at least they stopped pretending to be what they are not. That is refreshing.

            I work for a living, so total isolation is impossible. But yeah.. people refer to me as a happy hermit, and it is accepted without questions that I will decline most invitations to socialise.

            I do not decline countryside or boat trips.
            I completely relate to McKenna’s statement you had quoted.

  3. What does being awake mean to you?

    There are tragedies involved in life to be certain. You can find them almost anywhere if you look close enough. What are you looking for? How are you utilizing your life? Is it dominated by external stimuli? Are you aware enough to direct your attention and energy in a direction of your choosing?

    The key is to live long enough to learn not to devote attention to things that are out of your control, do not directly affect you and as such cause unnecessary feelings of discontent robbing you of vital energy that could be otherwise directed towards better use of your own life.

    1. Passion as well as personal inclinations can be tempered especially with the awareness that those things, if applicable, dont neccesarily serve you or are out right harmful or damaging. For instance, someone could say that they are “passionate” about politics and the goings on in the world but if all its causing them is to get frustrated by watching the news every day and griping at there wives about some political matter that they have no control over then what good is that “passion?” My personal inclinations used to be towards late nights and unhealthy activities until I became aware that there was no real pay off in them.

      I feel like awareness is really all that’s needed. If you give someone a choice between something that is beneficial vs detrimental they will naturally choose the thing that ensures their survival. Maybe a little willpower involved there but for the most part people are not doing this because they lack the awareness of there actions and the discipline to do anything about them. Letting those thing run on the subconscious level is the only way that people carry on with bad habits.

        1. To me they diminish the quality of life. In fact they’re a pretty good example of unawareness unless people mistakenly believe that the action itself benefits them in some fashion. Almost no one would choose to do something that they thought was had no payoff.

          So what I was saying when I asked what being awake meant to you is that you’re aware and self directed. You’ll notice I haven’t mentioned Michael Jackson once (there it is). That’s because getting involved with his story has literally no benefit to me. I live most of my life like this now. That’s what I’d call being awake. Aware and deliberate in action and being. Sure theres alot of noise outside, but I’ll never notice.

          1. It’s just kinda crazy to me that what is sold as being “awake,” in the spiritual community, things like “it’s all a dream,” “who cares” “there is no you” ect ect are about 180 degrees from what it is to actually be awake and self aware…

          2. A human adult position.

            However. No different from billions who also think in terms of personal benefit.

            Or gain.

            Sounds rather… calculating. Like our friend Kenneth who figured out no one will sue him, and Cambodia is a safe heaven if one wants easy Western Union transfers.

            I suggest you find that quote by Martin Niemöller “First they came for..” and think of its meaning.
            Some people jump into burning buildings to save another person’s child. No gain. Just because.

        2. “What’s wrong with bad habits?”
          😉
          Nada. Simply more cool experiences to add to your backpack.

          1. There it is…”bad habits are cool experiences” hmmm….I’d have to wonder if that were a true statement.

          2. EM – I’m looking to post under your post, “P.S. Robert, are you an expat?” but I see no “REPLY” option… so I’ll do it here.

            Expat? Heck yes. Been out of the USA for ~15 years now. Used to live in Belize. Beautiful, but too hot too much. Now living in the mountains of southern Ecuador. Incredibly beautiful, outstanding climate.

          3. Oooohh… you speak like someone who stepped outside his front door and walked in the meadows, that’s why I asked.

            Expats tend to differ from the normal crowd.

            Equador was on my mind last year for a number of reasons. Would be nice to exchange notes.

          4. j( – “There it is…”bad habits are cool experiences” hmmm….I’d have to wonder if that were a true statement.”

            Aside from the debatable issue of “What’s ‘bad’ and who says so,” my real point is this – Any and every experience is astounding, amazing, and utterly against the odds of such a thing ever even occurring in this Universe for you or for me. What a privilege to even be able to have an experience! Whether good or bad experience, I’m blessed. To feel it, to taste it, to know it. Literally mind-blowing, every time.
            You are a miracle. The Universe you seem to inhabit is a miracle. Having an experience, any experience, is a miracle. Look around you. It’s all one giant, incredible miracle happening all day long. What’s NOT “spiritual” about it? Any of it?

          5. “Ecuador was on my mind last year for a number of reasons. Would be nice to exchange notes.”
            Sure. Happy to. I presume you can see the email associated with my posts? You can PM an email to that address and I’ll get right back to you.

          6. EM – FYI, I tried to reply directly to you via the very long pingback auto-generated email address sent to me by WP. It bounced. So, I probably don’t know what I am doing.
            Maybe you haven’t replied directly to me yet. I’ll keep an eye out for a PM from you.

  4. You said to the other gentlemen “The talk of ‘collective awakening’ belongs in the sphere of wishful thinking. It is not happening. Why? Because, as Mr. McKenna says, “To what do we awake?”…To the same old bullshit.

    Above you said to me “it sounds calculating.” I’d have to conclude that if you’re not being deliberate or calculating then you dont know what you’re doing. This is why we wake up to “the same old bullshit”

    Nice chatting.

    1. I know what I am doing: making others (or attempting to) aware of all the spiritual bullshit out there, peddled to them often for good monetary value.

      I don’t know why I am doing this. I don’t gain from it.

      I have never been deliberate and calculating. It is not who I am. I CAN, in order to join the human zoo, but it would be a betrayal of my inner nature.

      I know who/ what I am, Justin. When you gain a little bit of true wisdom you will see that you cannot impose your way of being on others.

      We had this conversation before. We are in different life stages, and what excites you and drives you forward – is behind me now.

      Accept that. Different life stages. They exist.

      1. Got it. I dont see really see having a conversation about directing attention, having awareness or a lack of it being problematic for humanity as “imposing my way of being” per se. Just making conversation BECAUSE I’ve accepted that there are other view points. That’s where “true wisdom” comes from. Being open to other perspectives and weighing them against what you know experientialy to see if there is something your missing or that compels you to try and see things another way.

        I’m fairly confident in that I speak my truth and allow others to do the same. I see that as the only way to reach valid conclusions, with authenticity borne through real experience and fully developed thoughts. When the dust settles you can find out what’s still standing. I guess that could seem imposing if I were trying to uphold something that wasn’t meant to stand on it’s own. I dont see how that’s any different than what you do here.

        But I’m not interested in swaying anyone into only seeing from my point of view. I’m more interested in getting it out here in the open for the sake of my own clarity because after all, age has nothing to do with wisdom. It’s there for the taking if your open and willing to get it yourself.

        1. @ Robert, its probably a good thing that theres not a reply button to your comment about “what’s not spiritual about any of it” save that shit for the satsang.

          1. j( – IMO, the greatest truths are simple, and often brutal. Most people don’t like it or can’t handle it, so they spin complex, convoluted stories about why it ain’t so. Then they run with those stories the rest of their lives. Spiritual seekers are probably the worst offenders. I suppose it’s considered quite ‘adult’ in those circles to be able to smoothly pontificate, elucidate, intimidate and adjudicate about who’s got the best story. Debate it, pick it apart, nuance it until the cows come home. Dazzle them with brilliance or baffle them with bullshit. Same difference. The simple child-like truth has been missed.

            As a naturalist-style physician, for most of my working life I’ve dealt with thousands of people who have ‘bad’ habits that are literally killing them. Yet, everybody’s got ’em. Every habit, addiction, belief and lifestyle quirk that people have IS serving them… somehow. Sometimes it’s obvious; usually it’s well hidden. There’s always a worthwhile payoff in it. People will keep their habits and get their results until the debt is paid in full. Then the current habit simply drops away.

          2. Yes, absolutely. ‘Complex and convoluted’ are accurate.

            I don’t smoke anymore. It fell away as and when it did.

            You know what… it feels good to know there are others whom I don’t have to ‘explain’ anything to. The equals.

          3. Recognizing the miracle of this world’s existence really isn’t shit, Justin. Sometimes I look at my hands or observe a bird in flight or listen to a gecko in the night, and it fills me with wonder and just an unbelievable appreciation that I fucking got to experience it. Me!! out of possible 200 million contenders!!! How does my hand work? So coordinated, always ready, the best tool in the universe?? It’s a miracle. How does an eagle fly and land exactly in the nest, doesn’t miss it from such a great height?? How does wireless communication take place so that I can watch WHOLE VIDEOS across nothing but air??

            Bloody miracles to me, all of these and everything else, no matter the science behind. Sometimes I have tears in my eyes just for feeling grateful to be alive.

            This is what Robert means, the simplicity of it all, the appreciation of life.

      2. ”I don’t know why I am doing this.”

        Why do those who claim to have clarity keep saying that? Sounds a bit silly!
        Since this is commonly said with those ‘enlightened’ people, maybe worth to clarify
        on this one?

        ”I don’t gain from it.”

        I don’t buy it!

        1. To the first one….
          “I don’t know why I am doing this.”…… before I reply in more detail I’d like you to tell me the following:

          1. The type of fruit/vegetable juice you absolutely love

          2. The type of fruit/vegetable juice you absolutely hate

          To your second point…
          ”I don’t gain from it.”
          I don’t buy it!

          Good. Always check anyone’s claims thoroughly before forming your opinion.

          So that we are on the same page here is the definition of the verb ‘gain’:

          gain
          /ɡeɪn/

          verb
          1.
          obtain or secure (something wanted or desirable).
          “we gained entry to the car in five seconds”

          2.
          reach or arrive at (a destination).
          “we gained the ridge”
          ————-
          We are talking about meaning No. 1 of course. When I said it I meant ‘in material terms’, such as money, privilage, status, connections, properties, businesses…. an offer of cryogenically suspending my body or…. or a wealthy husband.. or… 🤔

          I did gain an absolute understanding however.

          Check out if I gained any of those and come back to me with your findings.

          1. Why are you throwing the ball back to me? I am genuinely wondering why you say that you do not know why you are doing this! Or do you mean to say that why I hate certain taste and love other has the same reason for you doing this?

            I was not implying that you gain material at all tho! But you do gain something which is not material. Point is, when you say those 2 things in one sentence like that, it seems either altruistic or as if a mysterious force compels you to do this for unknown reasons!

          2. There ya go.. you are smart enough to answer your own questions or to at least get close to answering them.

            The question ‘Why do I hate certain tastes and love others’ has no discernable answer, other than to say you were wired like that. Why can koala bears eat only eucalyptus leaves? That’s how the species evolved – to eat those leaves and nothing else.

            Now apply that same principle to yourself and others. There is no explanation as to why someone loves apples and another loves oranges. Or why one is an excellent sprinter, and another can do maths. Or why one is left-handed or right-handed. Or why one loves adventure movies, and another sci-fi.

            Everyone is wired a certain way, via their DNA, and there are archetypes, people of similar physiological characteristics. But there is also a question of nurture that can impact the naturally wired reactions. So although people of similar phenotype may all like apple juice and be good sprinters, they may also have different movie preferences etc.

            One is biology and another is culture.

            In other words… I don’t know why I am running this website. It started as desire to let people know about Kenneth McMordie. It evolved into the full Jed McKenna investigation. It then progressed into my rants about the nature of reality and the world. None of it was planned, as in long-term planning.

            Life is like that – an ad hoc project where no one has a clue what is next. Some of course try to plan their steps carefully, but then you know that old saying… man plans and god laughs?

            One lives in the way it suits them specifically. As if I could be Donald Trump huh….

            I guess what I ‘gain’ (if this word even applies in the context of your question and your doubts) – is greater understanding. Deeper, more refined, more advanced clearer vision.

            It doesn’t gain me anything else. I’d go with your ‘mysterious compelling force’ hey….

            You mentioned that those with clarity keep saying that they don’t know. I doubt they all say that, and how many clear people have you met really? My advice would be to compare their words with their deeds. Do they tally? Are they selling you something material? And are you buying?

          3. There is that uncanny feeling inside that “mysterious forces” are working through me and orchestrating this B movie I find myself in.

          4. I wish I knew what an A- movie is like. So far everyone’s movie seems to be… B.

            I don’t like the word ‘mysterious’, as I don’t believe on mysteries. Does that make me dull? Maybe.

  5. Yep. I dont know much about the art of twisting convoluted stories to justify actions but I know that part of waking up / growing up is learning to take responsibility. Even for ignorance. Which is a rarity and much the reason why most people never change.

    1. You can never really tell why you are doing anything.
      You retrospectively tell a story in a form of thoughts or out loud but it’s always a simplification of a guess about the said action that your brain produces.
      You don’t need a self-referencing thoughts to have actions. If you meditate a lot, your mind-chatter about “yourself” can and will diminish greatly. Still actions occur as always.
      About changing oneself, the more deep the unwanted patterns are,
      the more radical solutions, like life-threatening or psychedelic experiences are needed to jump start the process for changing.
      Sometimes it takes a little push, sometimes a lifetime of failings (and still no change guaranteed).

      1. On a superficial level one CAN tell, such as why one studies at uni (desire for a better future occupation) or flips burgers ( no other opportunities for self maintenance) or fucks (feels horny) or even seeks spiritual mists (inner dissatisfaction with life), etc etc

        But as a bottom line.. you are correct, no one knows why they do the things they do. I mean… humans were not born with a drive to go to uni. It is an artificial, culturally imposed notion.

        The bottom line is most people want to eat, sleep, fuck.

        The rest is all optional, brought on by our overdeveloped frontal lobe. Somehow our frontal lobe knows that the trinity of ‘eat, sleep, fuck’ means degenerative process, both individually and as species.

        We developed as we are because we were forced to by the difficult survival struggle, hundreds of thousands of years.

        Struggle is what keeps us agile, witty and cunning as species. And our bodies’ ergonomics are what allows us to dominate other species.

        1. There’s probably a countless biological reasons to go to the uni, something to do with ones social status and spreading genes I would guess. For us humans, it is no artificial to be thinking and living in abstract thought reality. It’s not aligned with underlying “reality” but it’s still natural evolutionary trait for us.

          It is an anti evolutionary to totally let go from your egoistical needs and be content regardless of ones circumstances, and still it seems possible, although rare. But to get to the point of letting go, you need to struggle a lot, that’s my experience at least.

          Even though my struggling is minimal nowadays, everything is still moving along, if I have some personal problems, I just deal with them the best I can/know, no extra hardship needed. From my experience when my inside struggles diminished radically, outside struggles seemed to diminish also (go figure!).

          1. Seagull – “…it is no artificial to be thinking and living in abstract thought reality.”
            Living in imagination is certainly fun, and everybody does it. The Extremely Big Problem comes when figments of our imagination are designated and empowered as ‘real’ and given ‘legal status’ in our common reality. For example, we have abstract concepts called ‘countries,’ ‘government’ and ‘corporations.’ We take these concepts and give them legal reality, legal personhood, legal rights and legal ‘authority.’ They seem to become something tangible, a force to be contended with/against. They can even seem to be alive and self-directing. Millions, billions of people believe these crazy things, and say things like, Government spending and debt is too big; my government has declared war; your government is bad; I will fight and die for my country; that corporation is polluting the river; corporations are evil, etc.
            It never seems to occur to anyone that countries and governments and corporations are not real, they do not exist. Except in the mind. They are only imaginary concepts. All you actually have are living people, doing things.
            The problem comes when these normal people “take on the belief” that they ‘work’ for government, or for a corporation. Now that this imaginary ‘government’ has been given ‘righteous moral authority’ to steal (taxes), bully (‘law’ enforcement), conscript (military draft), enslave (prison), murder (war and law enforcement), the people who work for government feel it perfectly fine to do all these things to other people. Then they go home at night and interact with their families and friends, against whom they would never consider doing the very same things.
            So yes, the power of imagination is wonderful, and the power to sanctify imaginary entities with very real powers has resulted in the most horrific crimes against our fellow man in all of history. Believing in immoral authority and obeying it: https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/20TH.HTM

            Stripping away false ‘realities’, over and over again, until Clarity reigns. Stripping away is the same as letting go… once you’ve stripped away/let go of pretty much everything, then there is no more ‘trying to let go.’
            You’re Gone. That’s the most fun and intense game to play.

          2. @Robert

            I wouldn’t go as radical when it comes to taxes, law enforcement or prison. All these exist for the simple reason of protecting large size populations from chaos. They are necessary when we talk about hundreds of thousands and millions of people.

            I don’t have a beef with the concept. But the execution of the concept has always been and always will be problematic.

      2. “…and still no change guaranteed”

        Ain’t it the truth. Ego is an incredibly convoluted, rigid, intractable son-of-a-gun. I often call it the Gordian Fucking Knot. (https://ethicsalarms.files.wordpress.com/2016/03/gordian-knot.jpeg) And like U say, it often requires a nuclear blast (life-threatening or intense psychedelic experience) to get the gears moving a few centimeters… at which time they usually rust solidly back in place again.
        Having spent many years trying to get people to understand how they are creating 99% of their own diseases, and how easy it is to simply align themselves with Natural Law and get their body back in decent shape… and then I see how probably 95% of them STILL can’t manage to get out of their own way… it’s easy to say to myself, “Forget about it. Why do I bother?” People won’t change until they absolutely MUST do so, and even then it’s dicey. (Same with the enlightening process, of course).
        But like EM says, “I don’t know why I do it.” I like how little kids will respond when asked, “Why do you make mud pies?”
        “Just because…”
        Honest answer.

  6. اِتھے کیان نوں مان وفاواں دا
    تےکیان نوں ناز اداواں دا
    اَسی پیلے پتے درختاں دے
    سانوں رہندا خوف ہواواں دا

    here to many in loyalty, have faith
    and to many of flair, have delight
    we yellow leaves of trees
    to us remains fear, the winds of

    Waris Shah

    Just a thought, among many others. Thank you.

  7. Interesting. I decide who I am, what I will be doing and why every day. Easy. It doesn’t always go the way I plan but about 80 percent of the time it does and that ensures that im not lacking in successful endeavors or that life is left to randomness and chaos. Then I’m not playing victim or talking about how I’m not responsible for the things that happen to me in life. Discipline and persistence has been all that’s need to guarantee any outcome. But that requires a will and if you dont think you can you may as well not even try. Good luck.

    1. j( – Everything you say is certainly true and laudatory, from the Self POV. I, too, used to do all those sorts of things every day so that my life ‘worked,’ and ‘I made the most of it.’

      The difference is that, from the Clear State, all these things you say occur very differently in one’s consciousness, if they occur at all: deciding who I am, what I will be doing, why, planning, successful endeavors, randomness and chaos, victimhood, irresponsibility, discipline, persistence, guaranteed outcomes, will, and trying or not.

      I think that pretty well covers it. 😉

      From my current POV, thoughts or concerns about most of the things in that list simply don’t occur. At all. There may be some planning from time to time when practically necessary, but that’s about it.

      What happens in the Clear State is that there is, at all times, a perfect abiding trust in the Universe, as corny as that might sound. It’s not even trust, really, because the verb ‘to trust’ kind of implies an ongoing, active process, like I am ‘trying my hardest’ to always trust in the Universe. Trust in that sense is like an affirmation or something, which it most definitely is not.

      With the type of trust I am talking about, you literally are merged with the unerring flow of things. It’s not a question of ‘trying’ to be merged, and sometimes achieving enough ‘letting go’ of yourself that you feel you now are merged in the flow. You just always are, no effort necessary. You don’t feel like you are ever fighting what is, because you are what is. The future takes care of itself; no concern about it, and little or no planning is necessary.

      What we were talking about earlier, the animal nature aspect of ourselves and how little that seems to change… now that I’m reflecting on the Clear State, I can say that some fundamental things have definitely changed for me. One primary drive of our animal nature is status-seeking, and that urge has been severely muted, if not eliminated. Another is the competitive urge, which runs in tandem with status-seeking; that too is gone.

      All of this is really quite astonishing, and after living it for a decade or so it became routine enough that I don’t notice it so much. But it’s always there, that solid unwavering feeling of integrity, concordance. And at any moment I can stop whatever mental gyration is happening and instantly drop into that child-like state of wonder.

      These are the kinds of things I had in mind when I commented to EM earlier, the part about how a bunch of Clear State people might somehow operate together in new ways that maybe could break away from old patterns of stupidity and violence that we typical humans love to repeat over and over again. I don’t know if it would actually work, or even if it’s possible. Jed often talked about how enlightened people don’t hang out with each other, like vampires don’t hang out together. Certainly there is no longer any ‘need’ to hang out with anyone; no need for ego validation, and no unconscious desire from me to suck energy or get something from other people. If anything, I now tire very quickly of other people sucking energy from me.

      But hanging out with other Clear State people? I don’t know about Jed… but it sounds appealing to me. I’ve met very few in these last 14+ years, but it’s dramatically refreshing when I do. EM is a case in point. I barely know him/her, but I instantly feel the Clarity there. All the usual unconscious energetic pushing-and-pulling I feel from others is not there with EM.

      Very cool.

      So anyway, I’m blabbing on and on. Thanks, j( for stimulating this inside, behind-the-scenes look at things for me. I’ve enjoyed it. Hopefully it stimulates some interesting contemplation for you.

  8. Thanks for sharing that Robert. One thing that sticks out is that you speak of a “clear state” in which you let “yourself go” because you “trust” the universal flow of things.

    What I am is very clear after my own little foray into the “enlightenment” rabbit hole that this idea to do away with ego as a way to better connect with this universal trust…is nothing more that another human idea that it knows better than its creator. To say it another way, getting rid of ego is just more ego, albeit a spiritual version. I’ve witnessed this spiritual ego aplenty in my conversations with enlightened folks. There is “no them” until you disagree with their spiritual views…then all of a sudden there they are and they have quite the opinion on what is and the way its supposed to be.

    I’d invite you to consider that all these things that are absent in your “clear state” (will and self direction) are actually those things that are more natural and effortless than a contrived spiritual version that someone must work to attain by letting “themselves go.” Truly letting yourself go implies that you trust yourself and your ability to make decisions based on experience and the innate tools you have to navigate, live and learn in and direct your own life. That these things may not be against the “natural flow of things” but are a part of what is on the primal level for the human being – as it is. Theres a reason why we can debate these things and that’s because none of it is set in stone and each have the ability to decide what it is and how it is for themselves.

    I hear alot about this child like state of wonder and awe. I’d propose to you that theres a reason why we dont turn our children loose when they are children. They are ignorant and would be taken advantage of and so we raise them until they are able to take care of themselves. Until they are able to trust themselves. I’ve said somewhere else that rather than doing away with self, it’s in ones best intrest to cultivate a healthy sense of self in its place.

    I dont have alot of time to discuss this in length because for me it’s no longer in question. I’ve decided what it is and how it’s going to be for me. I trust myself as not separate from or unworthy of being. There is no more seeking. Take care.

    1. My main observation is that how things operate for me now is not AT ALL what, 15 years ago, “I” was looking for, hoping for, seeking for, doing practices for or anything else. It’s just what happened. I’m as shocked and astonished as anyone else about it. I simply am reporting about it, and how sweet it is.

    2. j( – “One thing that sticks out is that you speak of a “clear state” in which you let “yourself go” because you “trust” the universal flow of things.”

      No, you still do not get it. With Abiding Clarity, one is always in a state of “having already and completely let go.” Past tense. It’s done. There is no trying to let go, or pretending to let go, in order to get some experience or attitude. Instead of trying to let go, you are now permanently Gone. And as I explained, you no longer ‘trust,’ in the sense of trying to trust or trying to believe that the Universal Flow is the goal and the correct place to be. You are just there, all the time, without any trying.
      It seems like a very big deal and very difficult to achieve for anyone who is not there. But after being there for a while, it is just the normal state, the Natural State. It feels weird to even talk about it or try to describe it… like trying to describe how it feels to breathe air or taste a mango. It’s just natural now.
      20 years ago, if you had said to me exactly what I say above, I would have thought you to be talking gibberish, and maybe acting superior and pretentious. Funny and ironic how the Natural State can be so difficult to describe, so easily misunderstood, and the messenger so vilified (or maybe adored! like so many gooroos). And even weirder how the Natural State seems like such a far off destination. It’s the damnedest thing…

  9. I noticed you were a jed mckenna fan so I’ll leave you with this…

    “Heres the deal: I am fully enlightened, fully truth realized. I am here live, on the scene and have chosen to describe it how I see it. I dont defer. I dont rely. If what I’ve described is conflicted by 10,000 other reports – no matter how revered those reports and those who filed them may be- then to me those reports are nothing more than fable and folklore and should be consigned to the dust heap of history. The simple fact is that I am here and “here” doesn’t look all that much like anyone says it does and I’m not going to waste time pretending otherwise. It should be noted that “here” isn’t mist enshrouded or poorly lit. It’s neither mysterious or mystical. My knowledge is unflawed and my vision is unobstructed. This is a tricky point to make but a critical one. Im not interpreting. I’m not translating. I’m not handing down something that was handed down to me. I’m here now telling you what I see in the most straightforward possible terms. My message isnt that you should believe me but that you can come see for yourself.

    It’s been my pleasure…

  10. “It seems like a very big deal and very difficult to achieve for anyone who is not there.”

    I mean…not really. I used to smoke ALOT of weed….That’s one way to get the effect of “you are now permanently Gone.” That or a head injury.

    Sounds amazing. Congrats.

    1. Ah, yes. Now I get it.
      It figures.
      “A LOT of weed.”
      That’s what I thought I saw in you when looking closer at your avatar photo.
      Now your snipy comments make A LOT of sense. I understand better what is writing them.

      1. Robert, Justin could have stayed a weedhead. Could. But he decided (or something in him decided) to step out of it and explore what else is on offer in this life.

        I respect that, and also the fact that he is honest about it.

        P.S. I’ll reply soon, tied up with things at the moment.

        1. I appreciate that. But theres not much to reply to here. I was in fact making light of this ideal to just be “permanently gone.” Robert doesn’t like that I dont think it’s a “special state” at all. I was just pointing out that theres more than one way to skin a cat. Want to remove your reasoning abilities and be “enlightened?” To the point where people are questioning whether things like child rape are “appropriate” in the “awakened” paradigm. Go play in traffic. Get loaded. Buy a bullet. It’s just totally ridiculous and theres nothing higher consciousness or spiritual about it.

          1. That’s also the nicest way I could put it. My other suggestion is for all of these “enlightened” folks to move to their own island in which theres an anything goes type of existence. Things like rape and murder are commonplace. I actually think the net result of that would be total awakening in a rather short period of time.

          2. They are bluffing, Justin.

            In reality most of these ‘enlightened’ folks wouldn’t hurt a fly.

            But theoretically… it is fun to imagine the world without ANY limitations, inclusive of the darkest twisted parts of human nature. Kinda like Mad Max world of post apocalyptic landscape.

            The truth is… those capable of abuse and deliberate physical damage to another – are already doing that.

            They don’t discuss the moral implications on websites such as this.

            They just do it.

          3. I don’t think it is a special state either. People mature, the minds grow, things become clear.

            For some they become 100% clear.

            This has been around since we as species acquired self-awareness. Nothing special, mystical, otherwordly. Nothing that can be transmitted or taught. It has to be lived.

        2. j( overcame weed dependency? Great. Bravo. Excellent. Carry on!
          So what’s with the snipe? Necessary?
          Am I the one coming off as an elitist jerk?
          Maybe you guys have a long history working through things here, and I’m the dipshit new guy walking in and bloviating.
          I step back, read j(‘s comments, and it looks pretty much like he’s misinterpreting what I am saying, in spades. More likely he’s twisting it on purpose to more easily dismiss it as BS, and prop up his own POV. Maybe I’m getting near old hot buttons, which is very easy to do with druggies. Hypersensitivities and unresolved crap abounds in most of them. And don’t get riled re: ‘druggies’; I’ve been there and done that. And much later have worked with many dozens of addicts professionally. Am no stranger to that whole scene.
          I’ll make it clear one more time, before leaving this issue in the dust: When I say Permanently Gone, I mean one’s super-ego, the hyper-irritating internal judge, jury and executioner is permanently gone. Likewise, the flip side status-and-approval-seeking, glad-handing, willpower-driven self-improving poseur has vaporized as well.
          Now, maybe this just happened to me, completely unexpectedly… and other Adult and Clear people have nothing similar… I don’t know. I report it because, for me, it was HUGELY liberating. I had absolutely no idea how invasive and destructive this inner bastard was. When it committed suicide, I came alive. This internal event changed EVERYTHING.
          99% of people’s chronic problems that I see, both professionally and casually, are internally judged, dominated and kept alive by this super-ego bastard inside. People can do all the self-help shit they want, decades worth, but if the super-bastard inside remains (of course he remains), the best they can hope for is putting some kind of makeshift harness around the bastard’s neck, keeping him somewhat in line… for the moment. Chances are very high that the bastard eventually escapes and blows up something else in the person’s life. It’s a shitty deal.
          To be rid of it is amazing and unbelievable. Maybe I’m just lucky. Or maybe I’m just another twisted, self-deluded psycho optimist nihilist. In either case, I’m running with it.

          1. “When I say Permanently Gone, I mean one’s super-ego, the hyper-irritating internal judge, jury and executioner is permanently gone. Likewise, the flip side status-and-approval-seeking, glad-handing, willpower-driven self-improving poseur has vaporized as well.
            Now, maybe this just happened to me, completely unexpectedly… ”

            It didn’t happen Robert. What amazes me is that you can write all that and seconds later talk about how amazing it is to be rid of your ego. No one is free of their sense of self with no exceptions. But it’s your story…

            You also seem to freely be able to talk about how in the awakened paradigm rape “apropos” but yet can throw around judgements about people who smoked a little pot with ease. That’s interesting.

            You cant rile me about my past or anything else for that matter. I own who and what I am rather than hiding behind a facade. The reality is that I can be a jerk, especially when I sense that people are not being genuine.

          2. Dont take it personally. I may or may not purposely elicit these sort of things in “enlightened” people that tell stories about having totally rid themselves of ego and judgement.

          3. You’re easily shaken from your platitudes of enlightenment and a “clear state.” What does it mean when your stories dont match the reality? Interestingly enough I used to tell similar stories and would sell them to anyone who would listen. It all sounds great, but it did little to effect real change. It did nothing to address the reality of my situation. What made it apparent to me over and over again was real interaction with the real world. I had to come to accept that I wasn’t floating on clouds above the rest of humanity. I was in it and having to deal with the realities of it. Having to face reality and effect real change through myself. That’s the only way I’ve made progress and theres been alot of it.

            So maybe that’s not applicable to you. Maybe you’re perfectly content and believe that you’ve totally rid yourself of self. That’s fine. Helping myself to see the truth is all that matters to me. I’m very selfish in that regard.

          4. OK j(, here’s the deal. I’m on the far end of the auditorium, trying to talk to you. I speaking Russian. You’re on the other end of the auditorium, listening, but you only understand French. Then you speak to me in French, and vice versa.

            So, no more from me about this. This medium – internet discussion – is WAY too primitive for this level of interaction. I’m missing out on ALL your body language, ALL your gestures, ALL you voice inflections and ALL your subtle incriminating nuances.

            Repeating what EM said, “I don’t know why I do this.”
            I already know it’s pointless and achieves nothing, 99.9% of the time. Truly, it usually makes things worse. Yet I still jump into the internet and do it sometimes. Exact same results whether I’m talking physical health, mental health, emotional health, spiritual health with others.

            One on one, alive and in-person, is the only way.

            (I’ll have to take some time to look at this insane urge that pops up in me…)

          5. EM – “Do you mean that?”

            Sure I do. I’ve had a decent share of people with whom I’ve celebrated their breakthroughs beyond disease issues, addiction issues, personal issues. That’s always a good moment to seize and celebrate, even if only with a shake of the hand, a hug and a knowing eye contact.

            But as I just said in another post, 95% of my sincerity is utterly missing from this internet exchange. Almost no way you can correctly know if I’m bullshitting and deceiving, or not. All anyone’s got are my written words. It’s like I can only express 5% of my entire point. And then you can pick up only 5% of that 5% from me.
            Very limited.

          6. EM – “Robert, please don’t say you want to ‘teach’. ”

            Ha! 🙂

            Teacher, doctor, listener… For whatever karmic reason, I notice I have taken on, or often just find myself, in that role. A fair number of people seem to want some advice or opinions or answers from me.
            Fools. 😉

            Likewise, I foolishly respond. That’s my first mistake. Then I follow that with the second foolish mistake of believing I am talking clearly and sensibly. And then I make the third foolish mistake of hoping that they understand what I am saying. Probably their mind just then drifted off to something else that is more important to them than my BS.

            Then another question comes, and here we go again.

            What IS this weird dance we all do? Plenty of science says that only a tiny fraction of all our communications actually work as intended. But we all keep doing it. It’s an exasperating worldwide addiction. I’m always surprised that we haven’t killed each other off long ago.

          7. EM – “Robert, please don’t say you want to ‘teach’. ”

            BTW, I see a heckuva lot of “teaching” coming from EM on this board…
            😉

  11. One guy who I knew in Iran (a bad-ass and unruly dude) was in love with a girl who both her and the her family were rejecting him left and right, he kept stalking the girl and she never ever talked to him until one day he up raping her. After he raped her the girl actually married him and now they are living together and she is totally happy. IMO this is 100% more honest and more natural way of attracting a women than what is used in and approved by the society (money, status, games and other types of manipulation) now this guy could do this because he was truly unruly and never accepted to get brainwashed and infused with fear by the society since early age.
    I watched the youtube vid. as it Shows the Kid were actually totally OK with doing sexual things with Micheal and enjoying in. until he gets indoctrinated by the society later in life and accepts that it was a very baad bad thing that Micheal has done to him, while given he was not indoctrinated with this beliefs he would never care about these shit his whole life. and now he is Traumatized and full of hatred and misery and thus a prefect member of society (who needs all the numbing instruments provided by it and has to work for it)

    This thing that you say that the things like pedophilia, sexual abuse, molestation, rape etc are for Human kid or Human monkeys and Human Adults don’t do that is just a story generated from the society of this era. In fact I believe people who actually do these kind of stuff in this society (despite the huge amount of guilt and shame is imposed on it) are much much closer to waking up than the typical nice guy robots that suppress all their natural urges and then feel happy for pleasing mamma and papa.
    You care about these because you are fully blinded by the role that society has put on you and you want to raise a proper nice boy. it has nothing to do with waking up.

    1. Rape is a more natural way of attracting women? OK.

      Did you know that dolphins gang rape their females? Or that lions deliberately kill the litter of young cubs from another lion so that they could mate with the female? Or that Tasmanian devils keep the female in a prison in her burrow and repeatedly fuck her until exhausting themselves to the point when a female can kick him out?

      All natural, but as a human – I don’t want to be part of that kind of world.

      You are still a child in your mind and see nothing beyond others’ words about the natural order of things. What d’ya know… all that you expressed above are not actually YOUR ideas. They float in cyberspce as part of the Collective Conscious and are picked up by many immature minds. Such as yours.

      In short..you have the brawl, but do you have the brain?

      Anything that exists in this world – IS natural, by virtue of its existence. It don’t make all of it welcome.

      But you may disagree, Nukeware. Stay an animal. Go and claim a woman by raping. It’s natural to take without asking out there in nature, right? But before you do… Apply those words of yours to your mother or sister.

      See if it fits.

      1. yeah as I said what we call in our society “Rape” is more natural cos it is practiced in all the nature except humans (for the past 100 or 1000 years or so). I yet haven’t found any reason why should I place myself above any other being in nature (sentient or otherwise).

        Now it doesn’t mean that I’m gonna rape anybody or advice any body to rape anybody else! The body has its own intelligence and knows what to do at the right time and I trust that. I just wanted to point out that your disgust for rape is purely social conditioning. who knows maybe in 100 years the trend will change and that becomes a very cool thing to do 😀

        1. @Nukeware

          No, it is not a trend and not conditioning. I speak from experience. I was seven.

          The boys in the documentary wanted to be with Michael, yes. He was their idol. But I can assure you sex was not part of the equasion… until Michael made it so.

          You KNOW when you are being abused. Why? Because it feels… uncomfortable… strange… scary… wrong… It becomes a secret, but you cannot say ‘no’.

          Animals cannot say ‘no’. Humans can.

          However. The well- fed will never understand the hungry, as they don’t have an experience of being hungry.

          Most people are UNABLE to put themselves in another’s shoes; ego makes sure of that.

          For instance… I UNDERSTAND the strength of a male desire. You, however, DON’T understand that it hurts when one’s body is used without asking for permission, without consent. You justify it by the fact that it is done in nature by all animals.

          Well done, Huma… sorry, Animal.

    2. Yeah… humans have set the bar pretty low for themselves.

      Forget about harping on about political correctness, because what was expressed above by Nukeware is now the new type of correctness – spiritual correctness of the Jed McKenna generation.

      It’s everywhere. Anything goes.

      1. I just came across with a term “Spiritual Bypassing”, that is when one uses his/her spiritual understanding to avoid unresolved emotional or psychological issues, aka growing as a person aka Human adulthood.

        All kinds of spiritual bypassers are on the move, so it seems.

        I’m living in Finland that is said to be the happiest country this year by World Happiness Report (also being in top 10 suicides per population in developed countries) and I am overall optimistic person so I have faith in my fellow humans even though the big picture seems somewhat grim. I know how absolutely shitty humans can be so it’s easy to go full cynic but I try to avoid that. I’m not sure why I wanted to share that but there you go.

        1. ‘Spiritual bypassing’ phrase is used quite judgementally, from a perspective of one person looking at another and saying basically “Hey, you are not addressing your personal issues and instead use spirituality as a shield”.

          To me that’s absurd. ‘Spirituality’ itself is only a word denoting the fact that every person in the world is learning and growing, with varying degrees of speed and depth. THIS, as they are now and whatever tools they have at their disposal – all serve them in some way: the mistakes, the triumphs, good relationships, broken hearts, following gurus and pop idols, reading countless books and arguing online, bringing up children and losing jobs, hiking in the mountains and travelling the world, taking drugs and smoking MJ… what is being ‘bypassed’ when all is part of that acquisition process: living and understanding more about life with each year?

          The expression is modern in origin and total bullshit.

          People live. They cannot bypass that, because all that occurs – is part of living.

          I am cynical and a big sceptic in my understandings, because that’s the overall state of the world, and I don’t feel like sugarcoating the fact. I am not cynical in my actions, because I love life, the process of living, the feeling of being alive.

          No man is an island, no matter how that may feel so inside. Even Jed delights in the fact there are others of similar vision. It makes the world less cold.

          If all that makes sense.

          1. To me spiritual bypassing means denying your karma (misunderstandings). “Yesterday I discovered I’m God, today I’m this crazy drama-queen? I better meditate more to remember my true self”. Instead of using God/Self as a place from where we can meet the crazy one, we’re using it as a hiding spot.

            Or the lighter version. Not denying, but just letting it play itself out. We can’t fool ourselves forever, so eventually something clicks, lesson is learned, karma is burned. It just goes much quicker when we meet it consciously. When we’re living consciously.
            In other words, it’s better to walk in front of the cart, than being dragged behind it.

          2. @Joanna

            I have no idea what was the exact point you wanted to express above, but karma is an Eastern version of the Western ’cause and effect’ notion. Nothing more.

          3. It does and I think I understand where you come from a little more.

            Life is all-inclusive, that’s absolutely true. Everything is always in a state of flux, entropy & evolution.

            I AM life flowing through this persona, this thinking mind doing what it does, this body having feelings that it has, all around and within me, endlessly intriguing Life. Over time attachments have lost their strength over me even though I have not done actively anything to them. When you fully embrace and love life, your actions align with that, that’s my experience.

            The circumstances are what makes us “good” or “bad” and in this digital age, with global free-markets where everything is on sale, low emphatic individuals have an advance over emphatic ones. I also have my doubts about humanity but I believe that the worldwide urbanization and technological breakthroughs could potentially change the playing field, for the better or worse.
            Future will tell, so let’s just enjoy this life at this moment (as I believe you already do).

          4. “low emphatic individuals have an advance over emphatic ones” – That is true with one correction.. Do not blame the digital age. It has always been so.

            The payback for deceit is much higher than the payback for an honest and straight conduct. If you doubt that – look at the way big money businesses are run.

          5. You are welcome, Jimmy.

            It’s good to know there is an inside movement towards better vision, isn’t it?

            The rational way would be: 1. take responsibility for the issue one created 2. accept the presence of the issue created by another 3. deal with it all by way of finding a solution.

            Every situation in life is a chance to learn. Of course we don’t always learn instantly, and ‘in hindsight’ seems to be the most common way.

            I include myself there.

      2. Sorry tano if my comment made you angry like that. I know this is a very very sensitive topic for a women. feel free to delete my comments or ban me.

    3. And THEN… humans complain about the state of the world…. while simultaneously sprouting unaware bullshit about the ‘natural’ order of things. And questioning why they are unhappy.

      The man in the mirror… The irony.

      1. Yep. It’s truly amazing that it goes by the guise of being “awake.”

        What the???

        Oh well. All one can do is tend to their own shop.

  12. Tano: (no reply button)

    Since we’re made of BS, then deconstructing ourselves means seeing through this BS, yes. But that’s about it when it comes to mind’s clarity.

    What is the purpose of life? Why do we exist? What’s the point of evil, suffering? Look at Jed’s dreamstate theory attempt. Silly theories are all we can get from the mind and they’re worth nothing. Finding answers to these questions – that’s Clarity.

    From the POV of seperate self life indeed looks like hell. Even on personal level, the most happy, succesful life, becomes boring eventually. We outgrow this me-centered, lost in character way of living. It’s natural, while Jed turns is into: “I cheated the system, the fun is over. Don’t recommend” nonsense.

    People in spirituality often get lost in the impersonal aspects of reality. They bypass their humanity. There was time for that, gurus like Ramana or Nis (“you are not your body”) pointed us towards God/Self and the Absolute and didn’t bother with the embodying part. This is our challenge now. That, human game of survival or isolation. Personally, I’m tempted with the last one, but unlike you, I don’t believe that death will save me. My mind will die, but my mind is only a small part of me. Mind is not were spiritual progress is saved.

  13. @Justin @ Robert

    You both are getting the wrong end of the stick.

    Look beyond each other’s claims; they are ALL valid in their respective context. The claims are not important here.

    What’s important is this.. has this interaction brought an ‘aha!’ moment, no matter how tiny? Has a small corner of your mind got illuminated with a new understanding?

    1. Um, for me just more confirmation to mind my own business. Not anything new but something I keep coming back to. Honing focus.

      1. j( – “Honing focus.”

        I like it. That’s a good way of seeing it. That attitude helps to offset the exasperating aspect of it all.

        This whole “trying to communicate with each other” thing… maybe some day we develop telepathy? And we can bypass all this crude talking and writing thing?

        Probably telepathy will create far more problems than it solves.
        Such is the way it is…

    2. EM – “What’s important is this.. has this interaction brought an ‘aha!’ moment, no matter how tiny? Has a small corner of your mind got illuminated with a new understanding?”

      Aha? Oh yeah. Happens every time, even though it may be very tiny indeed. And every tiny one sparks a little appreciative smile… now or later.

      I suppose that tiny Aha IS the reason for need-to-communicate addiction we all have. And every Aha moment has been both a “giving and receiving” moment, aka a “teaching and being taught” moment.

      So, by this observation, while the spiritual teacher occupation gets such a bad rap in cynical circles, fact is we are “teaching” each other all the time.

  14. @Robert

    “BTW, I see a heckuva lot of “teaching” coming from EM on this board…
    😉”

    You also said that spiritual teacher occupation gets a bad rap.

    That’s the thing.. I am not a spiritual teacher, and it is absolutely not my occupation.

    Remember that the tagline for this website is ‘Enlightened no one’. I’ve spent months talking about the myth of enlightenment. I am not talking about it as someone in a state of unresolved questions and issues. I’m talking about it as someone who accidentally worked through a lot of those and arrived at the final understanding.

    As you mentioned most of it will not be understood. But I know it shattered quite a few illusions, and if so – good.

    I send people back to themselves, so that they could dig and find own answers.
    And they will, on two conditions: 1. If they ask themselves real meaningful questions. 2. If they don’t rely on another for getting the answers.

    The answers to existential questions are there for the taking.

    And yes, human interaction is a good spiritual teacher. Humans, however, are not.

    1. OK, good distinctions. I suppose sometimes you gotta throw the baby out with the bathwater, in order to reset the playing field. But at the same time, I’ve gotten plenty of good advice, good slaps across the head, and good ‘teachings’ from so-called spiritual teachers in my past. Though much of the spiritual crap I dove into only served to alienate me from the whole spiritual playground, some was spot on and very useful.

      So, whether I’m looking for a good plumber, computer repair guy or a spiritual teacher, it’s up to me to sort out the good from the bad. Often not easy to do, but that’s how it is.

      1. “whether I’m looking for a good plumber, computer repair guy or a spiritual teacher, it’s up to me to sort out the good from the bad.,”

        At the risk of coming across as a stubborn asshole I will say again: there are no good and bad spiritual teachers. All are charlatans.

        Am I the only one who sees that?? Ah wait… There was this odd Indian often referred to by initials only – U.G. An anti guru who kicked in the butt of his namesake J. Krishnamurti (metaphorically speaking) and much revered Ramana Maharshi. He told both face to face to go fuck themselves. Well, not in these words, but yeah..

        And there is also a mysterious American chap known as Jed who urges to figure things out for ourselves, but then tells people to read Chopra in order to understand what human adulthood is. But then he says there is no such thing as spirituality (correct). But then he says to folks that they could go teach (that wasn’t in the books). But then he…damn, I am getting dizzy here.. short of breath… so much advice… heart pulpitations…. so much conflicting info…. Gulp… what am I gonna doooo??!!….

        In the past a tribe had the elders who lived the life, and some learnt their lessons. But Humanity regressed somehow since having left the caves. Now we have the international spiritual cartel that charges for… what exactly do they charge for?

        Well… If I am the only one in the entire universe who sees the enlightenment teaching gig for what it is – so be it.

        1. “Jed who urges to figure things out for ourselves, but then tells people to read Chopra in order to understand what human adulthood is.”

          He says it in the context: figure out what’s true. You won’t be able and that’s the prize (booby prize according to Jed). When mind admits that it knows nothing, it surrenders and a shift from self to Self happens. I AM. This is the role of koans and asking questions with seemingly obvious answers (what’s wrong with killing people?) Done.

          But then what?

          Jed is not a fan of meditation, so he doesn’t stay to explore this Self. He labels it as “Nothing”, and brushes it away.

          “Done” means less and less energy to “maintain your dream character”, so using spirituality for making the dream more enjoyable is not a possibility for our awake Jed anymore.

          Hence, he doesn’t recommend “enlightenment”.

          Hence, spirituality that is supposed to lead you to enlightenment – BS, spirituality that can make your dream more enjoyable – good. Until you’re awake.

          At least that’s what I see.

          1. A neat package, Joanna. It is good to see that your thoughts are getting more organised.

            However.

            1. A nod to Chopra is not ‘in context’. It expresses exactly what Jed meant: if one wants to act as a human adult, to make the best of human experience while alive in this world – then Chopra will do.

            2. You say “He says it in the context: figure out what’s true. You won’t be able and that’s the prize (booby prize according to Jed).”
            No. Mr. McMordie claims that you won’t be able. Not Jed. Jed has a healthy respect for own mind. He talks about perfect knowledge (‘perfect understanding’ would be my preferred term).

            3. ‘Done’ means seeing the bottom line of existence, and that bottom line is NOT PLEASANT. I wouldn’t recommend it either, and Jed’s books are unbelievably dark. But human children… you know what they are like?… see rainbows everywhere, the books included.

            There are no rainbows in the books.

            4. To Jed spirituality is just a fancy human notion. And rightly so, because it is no more than a pretty word about the ‘all conquering’ human spirit that is searching for itself in the maze of own thoughts and emotions.

            Ha. What a twist: searching for something that’s just you, like searching for the reading glasses when they’ve been sitting on top of your head all along.

            Keep digging. It’s good for the soul (metaphor!!!).

        2. If the “enlightenment” part comes as a freebie from a someone who teach meditation or yoga or buddhism philosophy etc, does it count?
          These kinds of practices can trigger the process that leads to Awakening, so would you consider that being “spiritual teaching”( or am I being a semantic prick here)?

          1. God, what a question.. let’s see.

            Anything can trigger waking up. None of the practices on your list triggered my own process of growing up, although later on I tried/looked at/considered all three.

            Meditation has many meanings. It didn’t do much for me. It didn’t do much for Mr. McMordie. It didn’t do much for Mr. McKenna. Those people who swore by meditation.. well, I saw nothing of clear awareness in them. In other words, they were not anywhere near Clarity, although they were much more aware than an average Joe. But I wouldn’t attribute that to meditation, rather they were ALWAYS interested in seeking something. Meditation didn’t make them seek. Seeking made them meditate. But no real understanding occurs as a result of sitting still and trying to purge all your thoughts, or trying to imagine figures of gold, or trying to breathe evenly, or trying not to move despite that itch in your thigh, or trying to visualize the purple eye, or trying not to fall asleep or whatever else people do when meditating.

            Yoga – good for the body, no doubt. Makes one more flexible and makes one consider the role of the body in our overall sense of wellbeing. That, and some illness that will definitely put things into perspective. Spiritual? Not really. Yoga is just healthy, in the same way jogging is healthy (but not for your joints ha-ha).

            The Buddhism philosophy is not a philosophy, my friend. That is a very Western perception. Buddhism is a true religion in every sense of the word, with the same founder figure,, with the same rituals of worship, statues, sexually promiscuous monks, gifts and donations, pagodas and temple collections, religious festivals, music and special incantations, blessings and untruths of origins… and so on. One can study this till the cows come home, and be nowhere closer to Truth.

            I wrote about it before. Blindly following any existing tradition or ritual or teachings will only achieve and reinforce further blindness.

            So in answer to your question, no, it doesn’t count. I wish freebies were truly free, but they come with a caveat: you pay one way or another, and in the case of existing teachings – you pay with your lost mind.

          2. You could say that in the absolute sense there is no triggering points to be happening,
            just a flow of impermanence.
            But as we are speaking about concepts, yeah it could happen for various reasons, although suffering and discomfort are pretty good incentives to get started for a spiritual journey.

            The examples I gave you were not included with my initial awakening either but I can see why they could work with others and why some claim that they actually did.

            The “meditations” you’ve listed are not really meditation, not in any useful way when talking about understanding the reality at least.
            Meditation should be more an exploratory tool than goal oriented one (unless you want to hone your focus or get relaxed).
            To be mindful of your minds movements will teach you a lot about yourself and reality.
            How can you know if you are following blindly if you aren’t familiar with your biases and the workings of your mind?
            Meditation can help you to have a stronger metacognitive abilities so you won’t end up in charlatans satsangs so easily.

            I have to say my knowledge about yoga is pretty limited so that was a poor example for me to throw so casually.
            I know that there’s many kinds of sleep yogas and breathing yogas and such that can have pretty profound experiences come up.

            philosophy
            /fɪˈlɒsəfi/
            noun
            1.
            the study of the fundamental nature of knowledge, reality, and existence, especially when considered as an academic discipline.

            How buddhism is not also a philosophy?

            It is indeed a religion (4th largest) but that doesn’t exclude it from having a philosophical basis underneath its countless variations. 4 noble truths, karma, emptiness, nirvana, all philosophical standpoints studied by self inquiry tools such as meditation so that they can become a real understanding rather than just empty theories.

            The most sincere teachers are the ones that will teach the methods and are not flocked by the thousands so they stay under the radar, but I’m pretty
            sure there are a few here and there.
            But because human nature is what it is, most of the teachers are wasting peoples time for their own gain.
            But you are a living and breathing example that you can get out of the cycle of the endless doubt and confusion, right? So in a way the teachings worked…?

          3. “The “meditations” you’ve listed are not really meditation, not in any useful way when talking about understanding the reality at least.”

            You dispute my suggestions of what people do during meditation, then talk about what meditation can do. Yet, you don’t say what meditation is. I find that annoying, because it is not clear. So here is a question for you: what is meditation, and what people do during ‘proper’ meditation?

            Be specific please.

            Regarding religions.. every religion has a philosophical basis of attempting to understand man and world. At the start of each religeous movement there was always one man who was a seeker and who also was a Pied Piper – a talent to pursuade the masses of listeners of his vision.

            But these days… they mostly end up writing books.

            I had no teachers. Every question I asked – was answered on my own. Why can’t you get the simple fact that existential knowledge and understanding cannot be taught, unlike mathematics or combustion engine design or history or languages?

            I give up. It’s like talking to a wall.

          4. Seagull – Yes, the “freebie” enlightenment thing. A lot of contention about it. Do you get it for free? Is it a result of work/practices/devotion/selfless service? Can some guru give it to you with a shaktipat touch?
            Does enlightenment even exist?
            Among the “unenlightened,” there seems to be about 100,000 different opinions.
            Among the “enlightened” there seems to be at least as many as opinions as there are enlightened people… which is probably very few (assuming it exists…)
            If I am to give an opinion, I would say that anyone who is destined to go through this will have to endure a Very Intensive “detoxification and elimination” process. At all levels of their being. That seems to be the only commonality, from my POV.
            I have no idea how to put a name to what happened to me. The best name I can give it is “the Big Change.” Tano seems to like Clarity. Others like to call it Awakened.
            In my case, Kundalini played a HUGE role. It was a totally unexpected occurrence. Ripped me wide open for 4 years. Then it all ended with the Big Change… which has remained since then.
            In many regards, giving the process or the final result a name seems pointless. It is what it is. The only people keen on giving it a proper name would probably be the DSM-5 authors. http://tinyurl.com/cy3vlmx
            The process cannot be described well, and it is unique for each person. The final result also cannot be described well, but does seem to have some common characteristics for those who live there.
            The purpose of it all? I have no idea.

          5. Yes, I knew you would, after I posted that. But, it’s my history and reality. Anyone else can, of course, take it or leave it.
            If I am understanding it correctly, you, and others like “Jed,” experienced a process of deconstruction that involved no teachers, guides, mentors, books, or any other help along the way. Or perhaps some minimal bit of help from this or that. So naturally, your take is that most if not all of the ‘spiritual circus’ out there is useless and in fact very detrimental.
            In the vast majority of cases and issues, I agree.
            But your experience of the process wasn’t my case, as I said earlier. I was involved in a number of things in that circus over about a decade, but eventually rejected them, while pocketing the bits and pieces that were useful at the time. Those bits and pieces stoked my hunger. My ability to discern and challenge myself and others grew. In the end it led to a massive frustration with it all. Right about then is when the K kicked in, unexpectedly. Some, perhaps you doubt the existence of such a thing.
            No matter. As I said to Seagull, pretty much the only commonality I see is the requirement of a thorough detox/elimination/deconstruction process that happens one way or another. If the prelude to my deconstruction process included bits and pieces of extremely useful assistance along the way (you might consider it distraction along the way), and then manifested the K process to completion, so be it. If your process included none of that, great! You took the hi-speed train directly to the destination. So be it.

          6. “I was involved in a number of things in that circus over about a decade, but eventually rejected them, while pocketing the bits and pieces that were useful at the time. Those bits and pieces stoked my hunger. My ability to discern and challenge myself and others grew. In the end it led to a massive frustration with it all.”

            You are not thinking straight here, while the confirmation of what I’m saying is staring you in the face. Robert, have you considered the fact that what understanding occurred in you – occurred not because of teaching, but despite it?

            Sidhartha Gautama went exactly the same way: years of being involved in all sorts of contemporary societies, cults, travelling Northern India in search of answers, UNTILL… the guy got fed up with it all, sat under the bloody tree and said ‘Fuck it, I am not getting up until I get some breakthrough as to why this world is shite.’

            Some focus and dedication if you ask me. Brought on by frustration with the bullshut out there.

            Does that ring the bell?

            You walked to the other side into Clarity because the idiotic ‘teachings’ pushed you in that direction.

            The same was my path, minus participation in any spiritual woodoo gatherings.

            Look at things objectively, without desire to protect your particular story and how you finally lost the blindfold. The reality is – all our stories are based on the same universal principles of human cognition. As such, they are remarkably similar IN PRINCIPLE, if not in factual details.

            In short:

            1. Got pushed to search (Jed’s term ‘first step’)
            2. Got massively disappointed/frustrated by the amount of BS and untruths around everything ‘spiritual’
            3. Said “Fuck it, I’ll get to the bottom of it all anyway”.
            4. Got to the bottom. Got it.

            No one has ever assisted you. You did it all yourself, and that’s the irony. Sincere seekers are so fucking afraid to give themselves full credit.. it’s pathetic.

            You would have done it even if you were locked in solitary confinement for years.

            P.S. You are correct, I doubt the existence of kundalini. I don’t doubt, however, that a sudden massive release of hormones in the body can wreck havoc. It probably affects males much more than females. You guys have seven times more testosteron than females. The reason for many world’s troubles ha-ha.

          7. Don’t give up on me just yet.

            This is my opinion about the style of meditation that works for me.

            For starting point to meditation would be just sitting with curiosity,
            no goals, no assumptions what should be happening, no controlling of your breathing or trying to purge arising thoughts,
            just sitting and observing. If you fall asleep, that is also an opportunity to observe the state of drowsiness before it and awakening from the sleep.
            If you try to purge your thoughts it can also be an opportunity to learn how futile it is but if that’s the starting point of your every meditation, it’s easy to get disappointed and stop.

            Sitting with curiosity and non-judgement basically.

            Most people are so lost in thoughts that it takes a while to even see that.
            After some time it becomes clear that you don’t control arising thoughts or feelings and that’s one of the first big realizations you can have for starters.
            From there you can observe your senses and what part they are playing of constructing reality around you.

            For meditation it is preferable to have a seasoned meditator (teacher), who can explore the questions with you,
            not by giving answers but more like telling his/her experiences so you can compare and dissect your own experiences.

            This was also very rudimentary answer ’cause I’m not a meditation teacher.

            Even though you cannot teach the taste of apples to others,
            you can guide the person to the nearest supermarkets fruit section or
            you can walk with him close to the apple tree and ask the person to take a bite out of an apple.
            Some people take the bite, others don’t, that’s not up to you.

            And yeah, some people just show you the picture of an apple and say you already know how it tastes, some try to sell you a plastic apples.

            Of course you can’t directly teach existential knowledge that’s beyond mere words and concepts,
            but you can indirectly by showing the steps that got you there,
            that’s all what I’m saying.

          8. Well… no wonder people meditate for 20-30 years and are nowhere close.

            I tried. Those things that you mentioned about noticing thoughts etc – became apparent real fast, in the first sitting in fact. After about ten I realised that meditation was not answering any of my questions, and if I continue on that route – I may get some answers on my deathbed. Maybe.

            And that was not good enough for me. Do I stopped the foolishness and decided to do it my way, and that cannot be taught.

            Frankly.. it was not even my choice. It was dragging me and carrying me along like a white water raft in a raging river.

          9. (The threads here are getting pretty tricky to follow and reply to…!)

            “Robert, have you considered the fact that what understanding occurred in you – occurred not because of teaching, but despite it?”

            Yes, that’s what I mean, and kinda said, “because of it” until eventually “in spite of it.”
            “Because of’ and ‘in spite of’ both had their time and purpose. I don’t need to deny either of them.
            __

            “Brought on by frustration with the bullshit out there. Does that ring the bell?”
            Yes again; I said that.
            __

            “Look at things objectively, without desire to protect your particular story…”
            I’m not protecting it, I’m timeline telling it as I saw it and experienced it. All solely my POV.
            __

            “… remarkably similar IN PRINCIPLE, if not in factual details.”
            Yes.
            __

            “1. Got pushed to search (Jed’s term ‘first step’)
            2. Got massively disappointed/frustrated by the amount of BS and untruths around everything ‘spiritual’
            3. Said “Fuck it, I’ll get to the bottom of it all anyway”.
            4. Got to the bottom. Got it.”

            Great summary! Make a book out of it. First page as above. 300 more blank pages. Index at the end that only has 2 entries:
            Fuck It – page 1
            Got It – page 1
            😉
            __

            “No one has ever assisted you. You did it all yourself, and that’s the irony. Sincere seekers are so fucking afraid to give themselves full credit.. it’s pathetic.”

            Ultimately, yes, the whole process happened in ‘me.’
            To an outside observer, it may ‘appear’ that I did it all myself.
            But from my personal inner experience and POV during the whole deconstruction process, I wasn’t doing much of anything, except trying to keep myself awake, focused and alive. The Process itself, the hyper-manic, relentless mountain after mountain, explosion after explosion, seemingly endless roller coaster ride (as Jed might describe it) was not at all of my doing, crafting, manipulating, seeking, resisting, steering, choosing or controlling. I can take little if any credit for it.
            Jed talks about his process. He mentions the manic nature of it, and gives descriptions of Julie and Brett’s processes. I instantly could relate. Same process. Same manic drive behind it. Same primary effects, side effects and after effects along the way. Same outcome.
            Sometime during it, early on, I stumbled upon the Kundalini reference. Bang. Spot on.
            K is simply our conscious, intelligent Life Force. If U R willing to go there, you can see it like this: The intelligent life force energy (K) that created and maintains my body and mind is the same energy that enables and animates and stealthily guides my experience of life. The same energy and intelligence that wove my impossibly intricate egoself story is the same and only energy and intelligence that could have unwoven it. From my POV, there was absolutely no possible way that “I” could have launched that Process, orchestrated it, energized it, managed it, steered it or finished it.
            Makes sense and feels right to me. From my POV, every Deconstruction Process is driven and managed by each person’s Kundalini. It’s just a matter of degree and timing, as appropriate to each individual. In the West we don’t call it Kundalini, and we certainly cannot relate to all the Hindu baggage that has become associated with it. With our Western predilection to ruthlessly and rationally slice, dice and objectify everything, we can often talk ourselves into denying pretty much anything and everything… even if it is staring us right in our face. It can be tricky stuff.
            K, in its bare bones essence, I see truth in it.
            __

            “You would have done it even if you were locked in solitary confinement for years.”
            May be true. I’d say that the K would still have erupted and run the show.
            __

            “P.S. You are correct, I doubt the existence of kundalini. I don’t doubt, however, that a sudden massive release of hormones in the body can wreck havoc. It probably affects males much more than females. You guys have seven times more testosterone than females. The reason for many world’s troubles ha-ha.”

            Interestingly, there are many so-called physical and mental illnesses and syndromes that have characteristics of K. But all of the illnesses and syndromes manifest themselves and pretty much remain static; they certainly don’t eventually result in a better functioning human being.

            For example, there’s one called Depersonalization/Derealization Disorder. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depersonalization_disorder
            For anyone who’s going through the Process, they’d read the description of DDD and say, “Hell yes! That’s me!” But the fact is that anyone organically suffering from DDD remains in their ‘void’ forever, and cannot function otherwise. You can drug them up to make them more ‘comfortable and manageable’ (according to the caregivers), but that’s not a life worth having.

          10. I can’t see the intelligent life force energy. I couldn’t see it even if my life depended on it (no pun intended).

            It seems there is still some stuff in need of being cleaned out, Robert. Come on… you said you were a physician??

            I just wish you could speak in normal language when relaying your experience. I am that boring ‘slice, dice snd see’ kinda person. But it comes with a disclaimer: I wasn’t always like that… only ‘after’.

            I read about Depersonization Disorder many years ago; my questioning took me there. Yes, looks similar, but as you said, organic DD is a fucked up state in need of a constant maintenance. Just because some symptoms are similar doesn’t place waking up firmly in the same category.

          11. “Great summary! Make a book out of it. First page as above. 300 more blank pages. Index at the end that only has 2 entries:
            Fuck It – page 1
            Got It – page 1
            😉 ”

            That is why Jed’s first production (the draft of his very first book) was only 40 pages long.

            But twenty years and twelve books later… we all have to eat, right?

            Maybe, you and I need to start another cult. I hear it pays well. You could be the ‘public face’, as I’ve always been publicity shy, just like Jed. Think of all the perks.. female adoration… male business connections… you can stay in any part of the world for free (invitations will be aplenty)… you wouldn’t have to work EVER AGAIN.

            I can provide the head smashing content. Others’ heads, that is… Do we have a deal? 🤔

          12. “Well… no wonder people meditate for 20-30 years and are nowhere close.”

            Yeah, I agree. You need some kind of framework to make sense of the experiences you can have when meditating, that’s why Jeds spiritual autolysis or koans or buddhism “philosophy” can help the process of deepening the experiential knowledge to the point where you are “done”.
            That’s why psychedelics are poor substitute even if you have the paradigm shattering experiences, old thought patterns will take over after a while and people are left with an obsession for a weak conceptual understanding of the experience that they want to have over and over again, never really understanding the deeper implications of it all.

            “Frankly.. it was not even my choice. It was dragging me and carrying me along like a white water raft in a raging river.”

            The freewill being an illusion, there can be no real choices to make but we still keep playing that there are ’cause we don’t have a choice for that matter 🙂

          13. Seagull and Everyone – The wise thing to do is to identify one or more Fundamental Changes that have occurred when one is “Done.” And to identify, as clearly as possible, what triggers those changes and how those changes process through one’s system.
            For example, from my (biased) POV, it’s all a process of subtraction and elimination. Instead of adding more to oneself to “get there” (more meditation, more yoga, more superfoods, more money, more selfless service, more pretend love and peace, whatever), there has to occur an anger and frustration with continued “adding.” Something happens in one’s life that causes massive frustration and a feeling of futility. Then… maybe… the desire for subtraction/elimination kicks in.

          14. OR… what is true in the world and in oneself – is separated from what is untrue in the world and in oneself.

            The terms ‘subtraction’ and ‘elimination’ are misleading to me.

          15. EM – “I can’t see the intelligent life force energy.”

            You feel it, not see it.

            You know that Intelligent Life Force Energy (ILFE) exists in you. It’s why you are “alive.” A friend dies. Her body is lying there on the table. You lie down next to it. What is the difference btw you and the body next to you? ILFE. You’ve still got it; she no longer does. (Actually it’s got you.)

            In terms of kundalini, it’s unmistakeable. There is a strong, sustained uptick in ILFE. It’s not hormones; it’s not adrenaline, dopamine, oxytocin or DMT; it’s not due to some weird temporary neurological eruption. Any of those metabolic things can and do occur, but they are not the cause. They are the result. Big and permanent changes occur in the bodymind due to K driving the process.

            That’s why I pointed out that Jed makes the effort to talk about the manic-ness of the whole subtraction/elimination enlightening process. It’s not, in any way, a manic-ness that “you” generate and sustain. It’s being done inside you by ILFE. Unseen, but most definitely felt.

            Taking any “credit” for it is incorrect.

          16. That reminds me of ‘May The Force Be With You’.

            Nope… that mysterious life force is one breathing in and out, and the process of oxidation releasing chemical energy necessary to function.

            Now, my question would be HOW IS THS INTELLIGENT? ‘Intelligence’ implies a deliberate CONSCIOUS effort of skill acquisition and application of those skills to new life situations. Do you think Mother Nature is deliberate? Really? Is that true?

            Jed talks about the manic side because it becomes (for a time) an addiction to search, which is fueled by own emotional spasms. It breaks one down to the bare basics. Yes, in a way it is a process of elimination, but to state just that WITHOUT making it clear what is being ‘eliminated’ – is not fair on those who see the claim and start scratching their heads.

            Your explanations are by the spiritual ‘book’: the right spiritual lingo with no discernible substance. While they don’t at all diminish the validity of your experience, it is disappointing to see that you fall back onto the accepted paradigm of bullshit.

          17. “The Paradigm Of Bullshit”… hmmm… sounds like a great name for a book about the fallacies of enlightenment, dont’yatink?

            copyright@Tano, the Enlightenment Myth

  15. 2. http://www.wisefoolpress.com/the-whole-truth/

    3. Nope. “Done” is a shift in consciousness. The search is over. Not because you’ve found the answers, but because the seeker is gone.
    Where’s the darkness in the first Trilogy?

    4. Jed convinced himself that he’s a jnani – (he calls himself that in the Damnedest). After only 2 years of SA, without meditation, without any spiritual practice he believes he arrived in the promised land of spirituality – Nirvana (the liberation from repeated rebirth in saṃsara).
    So what are those spiritual practices all about? Not enlightenment, that’s for sure. I’d say that’s his logic.
    He thinks himself another Ramana, but while Ramana’s only teaching was “abide as the Self”, Jed only visits it and then starts to create a new, “enlightened guy” identity. So “no rainbows” for Jed.

    Why do you think he doesn’t recommend Black Mirror kind of movies, but Blade Runner, The Thirteenth Floor, The Matrix, etc..?
    http://ezinearticles.com/?Spirituality:-Enlightening-Cinema&id=13261

    1. You tend to take things literally and probably think that your ‘seeker is gone’ means ‘no self left’ or some such thing. That is because there wasn’t a direct experience for you, and I can say this with absolute certainty. Which could be construed as arrogance on my part.

      No matter.
      The seeker is ‘gone’ because the seeking stopped.
      The seeking stopped because there is finally nothing to see.
      There is finally nothing to see because all the questions disappeared.
      All the questions disappeared because the answers for them were found.
      The answers for them were found because one made an effort to look for answers using own mind and insights.

      Hence, Jed’s invitation ‘Come and see for yourself’.

      There. I couldn’t have explained it simpler than that

      Jed uses the word ‘jhani’ in an ironic sense as applied to himself. I have no idea why people cannot see that the books largely mock the ENTIRE field of spiritual enlightenment, East and West. But sure, he posits himself as an enlightened guy and speaks the ‘enlightened’ language because otherwise you lot wouldn’t buy the books. How else would he convince his normal audience that he has made the journey? Only by using the journey’s language, something a normal seeker is familiar with.

      btw, he HAS made the journey. Some of it is pure bullshit, but people forget that the Trilogy was writtern twenty years ago. Jed has moved on in his understandings since, but people keep quoting his twenty year old utterances like a gospel. Makes me cringe. Forget it!! Stop nailing him to the cross of his creation or treat him like an old moth! The man has moved on from that perspective, can’t you bloody see???

      Seems not.

      Ramana was full of own Ramana shit. It is easy to pontificate when one doesn’t have to move a finger to survive.

      I don’t know what ‘Black Mirror kind of movies,’ is and hence can’t comment on that.

  16. Hey Tano! Just found this. Check it out. She’s right on track:
    https://caitlinjohnstone.com/2018/08/22/society-is-made-of-narrative-realizing-this-is-awakening-from-the-matrix/

    Snippet:
    “Society is made of narrative like the Matrix is made of code. Identity, language, etiquette, social roles, opinions, ideology, religion, ethnicity, philosophy, agendas, rules, laws, money, economics, jobs, hierarchies, politics, government, they’re all purely mental constructs which exist nowhere outside of the mental noises in our heads. If I asked you to point to your knee you could do so instantly and wordlessly, but if I asked you to point to the economy, for example, the closest you could come is using a bunch of linguistic symbols to point to a group of concepts. To show me the economy, you’d have to tell me a story [narrative].”

    “Anyone who has ever experienced a moment of mental stillness knows that without the chatter, none of those things are part of your actual present experience. There is no identity, language, etiquette, social roles, opinions, ideology, religion, ethnicity, philosophy, agendas, rules, laws, money, economics, jobs, hierarchies, politics or government in your experience without the mental chatter about those things. There’s not even a “you” anywhere to be found, because it turns out that that’s made of narrative, too.”

    1. “Identity, language, etiquette, social roles, opinions, ideology, religion, ethnicity, philosophy, agendas, rules, laws, money, economics, jobs, hierarchies, politics, government, they’re all purely mental constructs which exist nowhere outside of the mental noises in our heads”

      Well, she is not quite right. All those STARTED as mental constructs. But they became reality. I mean… you aren’t going to deny that jobs or ideology or money or rules exist out there, are you?

      They aren’t necessary for the functioning of an individual organism, correct, which is what these kinds of arguments are essentially saying. But when an individual organism becomes a hive, as we humans are… try to run without any of those and see where it leads.

      1. The point, IMO, is that when mental constructs are given rights, privileges, powers, etc, it all gets out of hand, fast.
        For example: When a mental construct – corporation – is given the legal status of ‘personhood’, then the whole thing goes to hell. This corp person now has the ability to enter into contracts, to sue and be sued, afforded “limited liability” for what it “does,” it can potentially live forever, and many more. The illusion becomes “It’s not the human’s fault, the corp did it.” In future conflicts, natural humans are often deemed subservient to “needs and rights” of the artificial corp.
        Not cool.
        Another: Money. When actual valuable thing ‘apples’ are traded for actual valuable thing ‘gold’ and gold then buys another actual valuable thing ‘hammer and nails’, that’s all fair, easily understood, legitimate. But change actual valuable thing ‘gold’ into artificial mental construct ‘paper money/electronic computer ledger entries’ called ‘money’, then the psychopaths get ahold of it and the whole thing goes to hell.
        And so on.
        Can mental constructs be useful? Sure, as long as they are always put in their proper place and their status kept firmly in check. It’s a very slippery slope that, once the door is cracked open, always rapidly devolves to bad news.
        For the person who is trying to wake up, get their mind straight and make sense of things, the first place to start is to learn to see what is actually 3-D real vs figment of imagination/mental constructs. Then put the mental constructs into what ought to be their proper place.
        Viola! Things make a helluva lot more sense.

        1. Yes, it makes sense to make distinctions between the abstract reality which is only real in one’s head, and physical reality.

          “Always rapidly devolves to bad news’.. yeah. It is a reflection of what a human is. Humans developed an ability to think and hypothesize about things not physically present at the point of conversation. This ability cannot be and should not be removed. But there is no real solution to the problem of human beings getting lost in un-reality.

          The very few who truly understand this world – ARE ON TOP OF IT.

          I know this sounds controversial, but the people who hold real power – are fucking smart beyond EM smart, beyond Jed McKenna smart, beyond any spiritual teacher smart.

          They also lack scruples. ‘Smart and unscrupulous’ is a killer combination.

          1. “I know this sounds controversial, but the people who hold real power – are fucking smart beyond EM smart, beyond Jed McKenna smart, beyond any spiritual teacher smart.”

            I don’t know about “smarter,” but the psychos who have real power have certainly spent most if not all of their waking life calculating how to manipulate things so that they keep the power they’ve got and are always scheming for more. I suspect that if I spent all my time doing the same, I’d be pretty good at it, too.

            “They also lack scruples. ‘Smart and unscrupulous’ is a killer combination.”

            Amen. Thus my cheeky call to identify and eliminate all psychos from the planet. It’d be like moving gigantic boulders off the highway. Would get things moving freely. Maybe something good could come of it.

          2. Hi Tano,
            Could you tell me what to search for to find some more information about the people that ‘Are on top of it.’ (the world) Feel free to tell me to google it myself. But the reason I ask is because you have a very unique perspective in my opinion.
            Cheers!

          3. Jimmy, look at the progenitors of famous banking families or current big businesses: Rothchilds, or Warren Buffet, or Steve Jobs or Rupert Murdoch any other famous big names from past and present.

            I will go against the commonly accepted herd opinions and say that many of those came from humble origins, often started with nothing, had high levels of intelligence, a great understanding of the Jungle Law and owe their Alpha status wholly to own effort and drive.

            They understood Reality of existence. Perhaps, not from reading books; some people are born with the intrinsic grasp. BTW, our Jed falls into that same category, but without the hunger to be ‘on top of the world’.

            As much as people heckle the accumilated material wealth families… it didn’t come from sitting on one’s ass or failing to calculate sums in one’s head.

            That is not to say they were squeaky clean in their dealings, far from it. But my main point is that: those people had a clear understanding of how this world works, both human and natural (as they cannot be separated).

            Those who can – do. Those who can’t – teach. No saying is more appropriate it seems.

          4. “They also lack scruples. ‘Smart and unscrupulous’ is a killer combination.”

            Yes. This is the essence of what I’m talking about when I mention being deliberate, focused, decisive. Scruples are defined as a feeling of doubt or hesitation regarding the morality of something. Remove the morality question (as in not going for things questionable in that regard) and anyone can access this. Lacking doubt or hesitation makes people powerful.

            It’s a matter of efficiency. Having power means harnessing energy. The more powerful you are the less energy it requires to generate something. Taking the most direct path conserves the most energy. The one with more energy gets more work done.

            That’s why people like that are “on top of the world” they dont waste time or effort. They see what they want and they get it. They’re not distracted, reactive or persuaded by the millions of talking heads out there. They understand the nature of reality, know that what they want must come through them and they make it happen.

    2. “There’s not even a “you” anywhere to be found, because it turns out that that’s made of narrative, too.”

      A popular these days narrative and very misleading.

      There is a ‘you’, the real one when stripped of all conditioning and all fake understandings.

      I just hope that the real ‘us’ are not thirsty for blood in the majority.

      Why? You see.. these morals, rules of social behaviour – keep some humans in check. But most people do not see that. I think there was this old Simpsons episode when Bart went naturally spontaneous and the result of mindless following of own impulses. Well.. most people are like that when the barriers are removed.

      1. “You see.. these morals, rules of social behaviour – keep some humans in check.”

        Yes. And then comes the time when we are ready to give up our learned morality and discover the real thing.
        Stripping conditioning is NOT about replacing one belief with another (There’s something wrong with killing people / There’s nothing wrong with killing people).
        It is NOT an invitation for indifference and letting ourselves do whatever we like to do.
        It’s an invitation for MEETING everything that comes to the surface. And that’s meditation.

        Conditioning is not only mental, that’s just the beginning. Our whole egoic animalistic operational system is conditioning too!
        That’s why people often go through the “how do I function now?” phase. Fear might still be there, but they are no longer motivated by it.

        Full awakening is radical, it kills ALL of YOU.

        1. “And then comes the time when we are ready to give up our learned morality and discover the real thing.”

          The real thing, Joanna, is survival at any cost. It means murder, in order to eat. We as humans made an attempt TO WALK AWAY from the real thing.

          You’ve got it the wrong way around.

          I am still alive, it didn’t kill ‘all of me’ as you say.

  17. Truth. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. Not two. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. The kundalini. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. There is no you. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. Whatever arises. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. It’s the end of self. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. My chakras. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. It was a FULL AWAKENING. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. It kills you. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. RAMANA SAID. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. It kills ALL of you. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. It happened while in meditation. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. Its final. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. But it didn’t happen. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. Its complete, total, final, abiding. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. Theres nothing happening. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. That’s just your subjective experience. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. It’s a dream. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. It’s the absolute. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. But nobody gets it (except for me). Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. The infinite. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. Reality. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. Its extremely rare. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. Give up. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. Done.

    There. Got my spirituality fix for the day.

  18. Truth. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. Not two. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. The kundalini. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. There is no you. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. Whatever arises. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. It’s the end of self. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. My chakras. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. It was a FULL AWAKENING. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. It kills you. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. RAMANA SAID. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. It kills ALL of you. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. It happened while in meditation. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. Its final. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. But it didn’t happen. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. Its complete, total, final, abiding. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. Theres nothing happening. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. That’s just your subjective experience. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. It’s a dream. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. It’s the absolute. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. But nobody gets it (except for me). Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. The infinite. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. Reality. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. Its extremely rare. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. Give up. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. Done. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. Not a single trace of ego left….
    Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

    1. He-he, it reminds me of the spiritual bs generator. An Ozzie guy called Seb programmed it so the application generates random spiritual texts. I tried it, works like a charm, very convincing.

      Will feature it here.

      1. Guess I’ve never seen that. Thing is, I bet that most people believe in their little enlightenment stories and I suppose that like anything you truly believe you’ll find evidence for. And maybe it only becomes as silly as it does for folks like us that have been there and done that.

    2. j( – LOL! It is funny.
      On the other hand, when people get together, no doubt you are the life of the party. 😉

  19. @Seagull Jones

    “You need some kind of framework to make sense of the experiences you can have when meditating, that’s why Jeds spiritual autolysis or koans or buddhism “philosophy” can help the process of deepening the experiential knowledge to the point where you are “done”.”

    OK, that passage just doesn’t make any sense, so I will ask…

    …. what kind of experiences can one have when meditating? I mean.. you said ‘Sitting with curiosity and non-judgement basically’. AND? So I am sitting. AND? How does that lead one to seeing things as they are? Do you really think that Gautama was simply sitting ‘with curiosity’ and waiting for something to drop into his head and get it illuminated?

    Meditation does one thing: it allows a person to stop a frenetic life pace for a minute and suddenly see that they have AN INNER LIFE. In our everyday functioning we are absorbed with responding to outer events: jobs, romances, moving houses, friend and family gatherings, studies, physical workouts, holidays, hobbies…. a billion things that keep us interested in the world ‘out there’ so to speak.

    Meditation allows that pause to occur, the gap in which a person will suddenly realise that their inner world IS, and does demand attention and nurturing.

    From that point on – one does not need to meditate. One needs to engage their mind and examine what’s around them.

    Regarding free will… it is a non issue and a non question, because it depends on the levels of explanation.

    On the level of your everyday functioning – of course you have free will. I chose to travel to Sri Lanka and then Cambodia, based on the circumstance and my inclination.

    On the level of one’s deep functioning: the circumstances were not chosen by me, they just happened independently. And neither did I choose my inclination – it is DNA-based.

    So here you are.. there are simply tiers to the free will dilemma. All in context.

    1. Meditation experiences, let’s see….

      The state of egolessness (anatta in buddhism) when all the mind chattering just gets quiet and/or an experience of all-inclusive awareness that stops differentiating the inside from the outside and the mind from the body, just a pure flow of sensations in a bubble, those kinds of experiences.

      Essentially, meditation is being aware of anything that comes to your awareness, there’s no real difference if it’s thoughts or sensations, I AM is all inclusive. To me, that is being clear minded. Being here and now, not daydreaming and worrying about the past or the future (or at least being aware of that happening like you said).
      If you have a different perspective of being clear minded, I would be happy to hear your thoughts.

      Free will, self, ego, everyday functioning, deep functioning, all these concepts are “true” in a social linguistic level, not in purely experiential level, that’s how I see/understand it.

      1. “Essentially, meditation is being aware of anything that comes to your awareness, there’s no real difference if it’s thoughts or sensations, I AM is all inclusive. To me, that is being clear minded. Being here and now, not daydreaming and worrying about the past or the future (or at least being aware of that happening like you said).

        You’re always aware of anything that comes into awareness…are you not? The second part of attempting not to day dream or think about the past/future is obsolete since, as you said the “I Am is all inclusive.” Why make one, two again?

        1. I don’t think it’s obsolete, I have some problems with focusing my attention, usually I’m either in deep daydream mode or my attention is all over the place, chasing every sound and move. When I’m deep in my thoughts so to speak, it feels like my awareness is very narrow but when I’m being equally aware for everything that’s going on, my awareness feels large in comparison and my actions are more adjusted to the moment at hand.

          Awareness can expand to degrees that are hard to imagine. You can be aware of your body, free passing of thoughts and every sense you have simultaneously, that’s what makes you feel alive in a very different way from the usual one pointed focus of the attention. Meditation practice help me to be in that clear minded state.

          We have an absolutely amazing world that we can interact with so missing it just because the mind is busy with secondary stuff is foolish to me. It all comes down to preferences I guess.

          1. I see. When you’re “done” trying to manipulate that you can just allow awareness to do what it needs to do. Expand when you have nothing going on, focus when theres a task at hand, drift off to thoughts or get immersed into whatever is going on around you and it wont really matter because its the preference for something else that keeps someone apart from what is. I see meditation as almost a practice in that. First you must decide that what you’re aware of isnt what you’re supposed to be aware of so you make yourself sit down and strive for something else. At least that’s been my experience. Just letting go of all that striving for something else was amazing for me. Just settling in to what’s actually going on without believing that its supposed to be different. If you’ve ever noticed, its usually those who never start looking for happiness that actually found it. Those who never placed themselves apart from something that actually got it. Anyways, that’s about all the spiritual talk I’ve got in me for the day. I’ve found it to be completely useless.

          2. @J(
            Like you said, that was pretty close to being a spiritual talk so watch out 😀

            For me to be meditating for a more clear minded state of being is not in a conflict with what is, it is included in what is, that’s just my modus operandi, that’s what my awareness needs to do. I’ve been content with what is for a few years now but that doesn’t mean that my shortcomings have been dealt with. That’s why I’m improving my unstable attention and motivation and if meditation is what works, then I’m doing that.

            I’m not trying to advocate meditation for all, I think it can benefit all kinds of people but it would be foolish of me to say it is cure-for-all or the best way to realize the Truth. But it is not just a tool for slowing down and having a light introspection, it can enhance your scope of awareness.

            You do what you need do do at this moment, it’s all good anyway 🙂

          3. “… that was pretty close to being a spiritual talk so watch out.”
            Funny, ain’t it? You come into this life in Awe, no reference for anything. It’s all amazing. Then you develop your sense of “You.” Then you have (lifetimes of?) fun and misery with “You.” Then you get tired of that and you get into loads of spiritual practices and debates to deal with “You”. Then you tell yourself that everything is BS, especially “You.” Then, maybe, something happens, it all falls apart, and the Awe reappears, as it’s always been… with the added memories of everything you’ve gone through.
            It’s probably all a Matrix simulation.
            https://hackernoon.com/are-we-already-in-the-matrix-7492e89be433

          4. It is probably not a simulation of any kind.

            Just makes me wonder why people cannot see own walking round in circles. In the past humans attributed the world’s existence to a deity, one or many. These days the techno savy generation talks about computer simulations and the Matrix. What changed? Is it not obvious that the PRINCIPLE of all those suppositions is the same?

            Never learn.

            That movie did more damage to human Clarity than most.

          5. I suppose the principle being alluded to is that most everyone feels that ‘something unknown’ is pulling the strings in their life, so the stories about who or what that is keep coming. And so it will continue, because if one believes they’ve drilled down far enough to negate literally everything, then there’s nowhere remaining to explore. Since we are curious, exploring creatures, another story MUST be manufactured, and the hunt resumed. Besides that, there IS more to this Universe and to this Mind than we can summon up to question and negate. IOW, you’ll never negate it all, cuz you cannot entertain, much less comprehend it all.

          6. Robert, I don’t AT ALL feel that ‘something unknown is pulling the strings’, as you say. Not at,all.

            Am I weird in that sense? That I see no mysteries in what is called ‘life’? It seems so plain, clear, unmysterious, unmythical.. SO ORDINARY.

            Normal. Just normal.

          7. You missed my point. I’m agreeing with you that most belief-driven people will continue to generate God/god scenarios to placate themselves, because in that state of mind “most everyone feels that ‘something unknown’ is pulling the strings in their lives.”
            As to “ordinary” – yes, definitely.
            “Normal”? I don’t know what that is. Or maybe you mean something like “natural,'” as in the normal, natural state? If yes, then yes.
            As to mythical, mystical, etc – certainly not as these terms are commonly understood, revered and worshiped; none of that. But in the sense of miraculous, amazing, always entertaining and forever ineffable – yes, definitely.

          8. It is indeed a fascinating journey to be partaking with all of “yous” out there.

            About the simulation hypothesis, the problem that I see with it is we use our current worlds logic and knowledge to a reference point for the next level of reality but whose to say what kind of rules govern that reality? Maybe they don’t have any pixels or atoms or entropy or whatnot, to assume that is to take leap of faith.
            It could also be tripping aliens or brains in the vats for all I know.

            Anyhow, the experience of being is always here, whatever the building blocks of the universe may be. Let us enjoy the unique ride wherever it takes us!

          9. @Robert

            “You missed my point. ”

            OK, fair enough, I did.

            What is normal… I guess it is what feels normal to an individual.

            I know that when the blindfold fell, and after a period of digging and understanding further – my world became sane. Without daydreaming. Without emotional ups and downs. Without believing the improbable. Without attachment. Without toxicity.

            Normal.

      2. Being ‘here and now’ is all good and well, but you also said this:
        “meditation is being aware of anything that comes to your awareness, there’s no real difference if it’s thoughts or sensations, I AM is all inclusive. To me, that is being clear minded.”

        A few points.
        1. If meditation is ‘being aware of anything that comes to your awareness – then what exactly is one going to be aware of while sitting on a cushion? Own thoughts? Own breathing? Own misery? Own memories? A gust of wind in the air? Perhaps, ALL those, but tell me how noticing all those and more can grant one Clarity? Huh?

        2. No one (I repeat – no one) is aware of absolutely everything that takes place. It is not possible. Are you aware of your own heart beat every second? Only when you are having a problem with your heart or overexerted yourself. Are you aware of absolutely every sound in the street right now as you are reading this? No, you are not.

        Sensory AND mental mechanisms are obscured for a very serious reason: one doesn’t want to experience a breakdown due to a sensory overload. In terms of cognitive functioning of the human brain it is expressed as your subconscious.

        We only attend to what is of immediate survival advantage, hence, most of the processing happens below the level of direct awareness. As it should.

        You talk about a purely experiential level.. hmm.. on that pure level all we do is breathe, eat, sleep, fuck and fight. The rest are the mental substructures that found a way of materialising in the physical world. I mean.. someone had to come up with the IDEA of the Golden Gate bridge first, right? Before it became a reality?

        So no, not a ‘linguistic’ level. Look deeper.

        1. “1. If meditation is ‘being aware of anything that comes to your awareness – then what exactly is one going to be aware of while sitting on a cushion? Own thoughts? Own breathing? Own misery? Own memories? A gust of wind in the air? Perhaps, ALL those, but tell me how noticing all those and more can grant one Clarity? Huh?”

          If you can get past of the observing and observed, there’s your answer. If you are already awake as in really AWAKE from moment to another, then don’t bother.
          My mind (read “reality”) is blurry at times, thanks to my adhd brain, so meditation, that I do wherever I am, get me out of the sleepiness back to reality at hand.

          “2. No one (I repeat – no one) is aware of absolutely everything that takes place. It is not possible. Are you aware of your own heart beat every second? Only when you are having a problem with your heart or overexerted yourself. Are you aware of absolutely every sound in the street right now as you are reading this? No, you are not.”

          I assure you, you could widen your field of awareness from what you have right now, it’s pretty weird how aware can you be when you let all the thoughts fall away, more bandwidth I guess. Should you try it again sometimes? I don’t know, and honestly I don’t care.

          “We only attend to what is of immediate survival advantage, hence, most of the processing happens below the level of direct awareness. As it should.”

          Direct awareness? Do you mean self-awareness or attention or what? Or whole shebang?
          At least our self awareness aka ego (self-illusion) doesn’t do shit in a grand scheme of our organism.

          Inner and outer worlds are the same from the perspective of pure observation (btw, that’s what I meant by purely experiential, my bad). And of course, there can no observer if there’s nothing to observe so emptiness is form and form is emptiness, some buddhism core philosophy right there.

          “So no, not a ‘linguistic’ level. Look deeper.”

          It is already like an eye staring at an eye so…. how do I go deeper from there?

          1. 1. You make it seems as if there are different levels of consciousness.
            ‘AWAKE’, what does that mean? As opposed to what, asleep? There is no waking up, of course you can become aware of the thought patterns you have, or anything else that you haven’t noticed before. But that doesn’t mean you woke up, it just means you became aware of something you weren’t aware of before.

            2. Humans are really bad at multitasking. It’s hard, if not impossible, to be aware of several things at the same time. What happens is that you change your focus very quickly from one thing to another.
            There’s limited bandwidth, to use your terminology, the absence of thoughts would get filled up with something else, but it’s not like you get more awareness. And so what if there are no thoughts, what does that do for you?

            ‘grand scheme of our organism’, there is no grand scheme.

            ‘pure observation’, what does that mean?

            ‘there can no observer if there’s nothing to observe so emptiness is form and form is emptiness’, also no idea what this means.
            It’s just spiritual buzz-words to me. Completely meaningless otherwise.

            ‘It is already like an eye staring at an eye so…. how do I go deeper from there?’
            This is very McMordie-esque to me, dismissing a valid question with a nonsense answer.

          2. “You make it seems as if there are different levels of consciousness.”

            Not levels, mind states is more accurate. And they keep changing all the time, like when you have just woke up in the morning, your mind is groggy, yes?
            Or when you’re intoxicated you feel different than sober? What I mean by Awake is to be fully conscious to this moment right here, not being emerged with thoughts so deep that you are somewhere else all the time. Or why not, right?

            “What happens is that you change your focus very quickly from one thing to another.”
            It feels like that because your attention gets momentarily stuck with every new sensation that arise within your awareness.

            “there is no grand scheme.”

            It depends of the chosen perspective, if you think in terms of evolution, I would say that the procreation and therefore survival would be the “grand scheme”.

            “‘pure observation’, what does that mean?”

            When you shift from your ego centered (not to be mixed with egocentrism) POV to the POV of awareness itself that doesn’t differentiate with anything that arises within it. Emptiness is the Awareness itself and Form is circumstances and the content that makes up the Awareness. Does it make sense now or do you have some self questioning to do?

            “This is very McMordie-esque to me, dismissing a valid question with a nonsense answer.”

            It depends on the perspective, once again. It’s not nonsense if you replace the eye to awareness.

            It is all just tango between immaterial and material.

          3. “It is all just tango between immaterial and material.”

            All is material, even your individual consciousness. Without those synapses firing… you’d be a corpse.

            “Emptiness is the Awareness itself and Form is circumstances and the content that makes up the Awareness.”

            What the heck does THAT above mean? I sense plagiarism 🤔

          4. Do we have a language barrier or a mind barrier? You haven’t answered my question about what exactly one is aware of while sitting on the cushion. Instead you gave me this vague and evasive answer:

            “If you can get past of the observing and observed, there’s your answer. If you are already awake as in really AWAKE from moment to another, then don’t bother.”

            I don,’t understand what it means.

          5. “All is material, even your individual consciousness. Without those synapses firing… you’d be a corpse.”

            You could also argue, like some spiritual people do, that all is mind and not material. To me, mind is material, yes, but the material is also mind, they are inseparable. Awareness is the process that makes the material world to come alive and to exist and vice versa.

            Lets say there is a movie, that you are watching for the first time, playing on the TV screen. You are enjoying the colorful events unfolding and you’re so invested in the story that you feel like being the protagonist of the movie. In the heat of the moment you accidentally sit on the remote and the TV closes. Now you don’t know what’s happening in the movie, right? So you need to have the TV screen ON to enjoy the movie, even if the information is coming from the cable to the TV. It is just some raw data before you switch the TV back on and see the information come alive in the form of the movie.

            To me, awareness is the TV screen and the movie is all that is happening in it.
            It doesn’t matter if the movie comes from the signal that is transported via cable ’cause I can’t enjoy the signal without the TV screen that makes it a beautiful visual presentation.

            I am (from the POV of the awareness itself) at the moment watching this movie where this dude is writing this text from his living room sofa and wondering if this analogy will make his standpoint any clearer.

            “What the heck does THAT above mean? I sense plagiarism 🤔”

            I didn’t read or steal it from anywhere, it came out as this mind wanted it to come out.

            “You haven’t answered my question about what exactly one is aware of while sitting on the cushion.”

            The one will be aware of the sensations you mentioned but after a longer periods of sitting and watching sensations come in and out of the awareness, all these seemingly different sensations will loose their individual feel. Your mind will become still with no thoughts and there will be an experience of being absorbed into awareness itself with all of its content, a nondual experience will emerge if you will.
            If you mix this experience with the question what is true, or who am I, it will deliver.
            Without any self inquiry it’s probably gonna be useless, I give you that.
            Ego is a sneaky thoughtform and a plain mediation cannot show its trickery of being empty words and looping thoughts, but without any meditative practices it can be hard to abide with that POV.

            I tried to articulate as coherently as I could, if it still doesn’t make sense, I’ll give this topic a pass and thank you all for engaging this dialog.

    2. Wow, I really like your view on meditation. It makes so much sense, how is this not a much more widespread point of view..

      I came to the same conclusion on free will as you describe here. It’s nice to come to the same answer as someone else, independent of each other

    1. ZeXe, I didn’t say they are separated.

      I said there are different levels of explanation.

      As an illustration, a behaviour of a human can be explained from 1) a cellular or physiology level 2) psychology level 3) sex level 4) psychology level 5) neurology level 6) cultural level 7) economic level 8) species evolution level
      and so on.

      This is what ‘different levels of explanation’ means. Still the same human, but with all those influences running concurrently.

      1. “On the level of your everyday functioning – of course you have free will. I chose to travel to Sri Lanka and then Cambodia, based on the circumstance and my inclination.

        On the level of one’s deep functioning: the circumstances were not chosen by me, they just happened independently. And neither did I choose my inclination – it is DNA-based.”

        on my level of understanding, the free will choice of the first level, since it is based on the circumstances and dna based inclination (just another circumstance) it’s not so free in the end.
        i understand why it is better/practical to keep within the basic “level of explanation”, yet this context/level thing reminds me of the conversations i had with a kin of mine with a bit of a mental issue: i was trying to convince her that her fears are baseless, that the probability of being attacked by some thug isn’t really that high and that she must get treatment, while she replied with “maybe the probability isn’t that high – but what if it happens? and what can the psychiatrist do, can he get the thugs off the streets?”
        context: the art of always being right
        i understand it is a matter of communication, naming, knowledge. to know is to differentiate, and this sometimes defies simple logic, sometimes contexts don’t fit.
        paradoxes, axioms. maybe there is a right way of establishing the context – archetypal contexts, i don’t know.
        maybe the only free will is the will to disengage from it all (i already resent this statement). once you’re engaged in something (be it even suicide) you’re just a puppet in the hands of this bundle of habits that i call life.

        1. “i understand why it is better/practical to keep within the basic “level of explanation” ”

          What do you mean by this?
          EM said there are different levels of explanation to the free will dilemma.
          It seems you understood it as ‘the basic level of explanation is better/more practical so stick with this answer’ .
          But that wasn’t the point. The point is there are a lot of different explanations depending on how you look at it, no one answer is the best.

          The example you brought up can also be looked at in many different ways.
          She didn’t choose the fear, which can probably be explained by some of the 8 levels EM brought up.
          She could however still choose to see a psychiatrist.

          “once you’re engaged in something (be it even suicide) you’re just a puppet in the hands of this bundle of habits that i call life.”
          You could pick different habits.

          1. There is a saying that if you do something for 21 days consecutively – it will become a habit.

            I used to have a habit of lighting up first thing in the morning. Cambodia… cigarettes are a cheap $1 a pack here. Changed the habit, and I will give myself all the credit it deserves; wasn’t easy.

          2. Just for the sake of discussion and trying to be funny: sure there are good, bad, excellent, irrelevant explanations. “metaphysical” analysis of the free will matter might have dire consequences if one starts wondering if he really choose to wipe one’s ass. On the other hand, in the day to day life the matter doesn’t even rise unless it is about politics or human rights.
            She did not choose the initial fear moment. What and why she did with it after, it’s a different matter.

        2. ZeXe, focus. As Jimmy said basic levels of explanation are not meant to be ‘more practical’. All levels of explanation can be expressed simultaneously. The vision is all- encompassing, that’s what it means: that one can hold/see/observe/comprehend multiple perspectives.

          You are (or have the capacity to be) an omniscient God.

          All understandings are there for the taking. Just… take them 👺

        3. The will can be free enough to stay disengaged from discussions about it with others and decide for oneself whether it exists or not. Interesting enough, no one can convince you that you have it or vise versa. Theres a good reason for that.

          1. Funny, in the beginning I had no intention of posting any comment. But then I saw this long list of comments, haha, I just could not refrain myself, so I posted… apparent free will/ apparent no free will/ apparent free will etc
            Anyway, why is it a problem if one is using info from others instead of using only one’s own mind? I read your lines, I analyze it how I can / a thought pops out in my mind – I analyze it too. The problem is not so much the source but what comes out of it. People project their expectation be it on someone, on deity, or whatever state of facts . To me it’s more about expectation.

          2. “Anyway, why is it a problem if one is using info from others instead of using only one’s own mind?”

            As it pertains to the will, one is reactive (like this responding to you) whereas the other is creative (like telling you to answer your question for yourself) or deciding on something yourself.

          3. What does it matter?

            It doesn’t if you’re fine with perpetually being in reactive mode to the thoughts, actions, beliefs, opinions of others. The will however cannot be said to be free if it’s just constantly reacting to everything.

            Everyone’s got a perspective. Not one more valid than another and none more relevant than your own. Understanding that gives one the ability to go about life authentically and without a need or reliance on others for the answers. Free will is the ability to decide on something for yourself without the need for reassurance, confirmation ect.

          4. “why is it a problem if one is using info from others instead of using only one’s own mind?”

            The problem is the same as watching another to ride a bicycle, but not getting on the bike yourself – you never learn to cycle.

          5. Enlightenment Myth says: Bicycle
            Maybe it’s a matter of semantics that I get hooked on. So thinking for yourself it’s not just a matter of thinking but more about a way of being. Thinking is the nice theory, being is the killer practice.

          6. ‘Thinking for yourself’ means that you find answers to every question via your own LIVED experience of absolutely everything that happens to you.

            Being, yes, and being is not the ‘killer practice’ as you say. It is your life, and life is not a practice or a rehearsal.

            Remember… once only and then – never more.

          7. my life experience can be summed up within 2 words – shit happens
            and the little warning, only once, it’s just the thing that makes life irrelevant

          8. More times than not people want to assert their perspective over yours. Rather than just being heard, acknowledged and accepting the validity of each person’s experience they’d rather be “right” and make someone else “wrong.” You can save alot of time and energy by not playing those games with people and deciding not to engage in it in the first place.

          9. You’ve also got to think in terms of what you’re giving attention to. The quality of most human interaction isn’t all that high and so if you’re understanding that what you entertain somewhat becomes your reality then you’re mindful of what you’re allowing in.

          10. @ j(
            “As it pertains to the will, one is reactive (like this responding to you) whereas the other is creative (like telling you to answer your question for yourself) or deciding on something yourself.”
            What do you do when your mind can’t provide the answer? You forget about it? You keep waiting with the hope that one day something will happen? You look for clues outside of your mind?

            “More times than not people want to assert their perspective over yours… deciding not to engage in it in the first place”
            For sure. I do that too. I have this reflex of contradicting. Engaging or not is about the importance it bears.

            “Free will is the ability to decide on something for yourself without the need for reassurance, confirmation ect.”
            My fight with the “free will” may have something to do with the dissatisfaction with myself. No free will is a pretty good excuse. What I’d add to your definition is that if the will is to be free it should also be free of one’s own beliefs, preferences.

          11. Yeah I’m not a big “information” kinda guy. I’ve found that there’s nothing I encounter experientialy that I dont have a pretty good sense about. As for going about life without any beliefs or preferences…good luck with that if that’s what you’re going for.

          12. Rather than doing away with those things, I’d look at what purpose they serve, where they are likely to take you and learn to consciously choose new ones.

          13. “I have this reflex of contradicting” started long time ago, after my first spiritual impetus. i saw things differently from the others. and it seems i still do.
            “No free will is a pretty good excuse” became obvious as explanation and accusation during my interaction with the more or less psychological damaged. so?

        4. zexe6zexe says, “the art of always being right”
          Oh my, ain’t that an endless black hole of endless levels of “context.” All subsumed under the overwhelmingly intense, always present desire to “always be right.”
          It never ceases to blow my mind how good we humans are at taking one little desire and building incredibly large, multi-layered structures of meaning, context, status and self-importance on top of it. All of this rickety edifice held together with nails, cement, superglue, spit or bubblegum.
          Then, by some fluke, that original little desire gets snuffed out and the whole monstrosity comes crashing down.

      1. Yeah but… Her point is NOT about getting at “what’s true.” It’s about improving life on this planet, in this dimension, here and now… or at least in the near future. she’s talking relative, not absolute. Talking ‘Absolute’ is relevant for about 0.0000001% of the human population at any given moment. Except directly to that 0.0000001%, there’s really no point in talking absolute: 1) It’s unfathomable in the limited human brain, though some like to believe it is; 2) that it exists at all is merely conjecture; 3) wordplay about it is maddening ridiculous and frustrating once you get going with it, since wordplay is and can only ever be relative.
        I played with this ‘absolute’ business quite a bit back in the day when it was front and center. Now it nauseates.
        So anyway, I’m out of line posting such things here. Seems this site is about busting the myth of Enlightenment, but also about trying to get to what’s true. ‘Relative’ stuff is not really appropriate. The ‘good’ that I see here is your challenging style to help to get people thinking straight… or at least thinking in a manner that you feel will serve to ‘enlighten’…..

        1. “It’s about improving life on this planet, in this dimension, here and now… or at least in the near future.”

          It is not possible, Robert, and that’s why she (and you) are dreamers.

          It is not possible because for the real improvements to occur – the very human nature has to change on very fundamental levels. And THAT is not going to happen. Ever.

          What happens then? Well, every human is pulling their own cart, there are nearly eight billion carts out there, and Truth happens in the gaps of continuous negotiation between all those carts.

          1. Well, I’ll keep dreaming then. Fundamental human nature is there; not denying it. Along with it there is also the drive to imagine, explore, create, evolve. Most can’t or won’t… but I’m not interested in ‘most.’
            Part of this process is coming to grips with the animal nature, the extremes of human nature, and everything in-between. Kinda like working in the ER at the front lines of a war zone. Once all that’s seen, accepted, digested, processed and purged, then what? Well, whatever you want. It’s nothing I care to dwell on. Helping others see it, or walk them through it? I suppose so, if that’s your desire. It certainly is a necessary step.
            Since I’m here for a little while longer, to the degree I interact, I’ll hang with the dreamers, schemers and locos.

          2. @Robert

            And then you die. And millions are born in your place. And they begin to grapple with the same, while living through their experiences. Then they die and are replaced with a new clueless human cohort.

            Do you get the picture? A perpetual circle.

            I am with Jed on that, in my somewhat sceptical stance.

            You want the dream still.

            I said we never left the Neverland. That’s why I said so. We will never leave it as a collective body.

          3. Sure, I get it. I agree w/you. I see it, saw it and know the utter futility of it.
            Check.
            OK, now that that’s fully grokked and been there done that, now what? Curl up in a ball and drool? Tattoo ‘The end is near’ on my forehead? Spend my days telling others how pointless and useless it all is? You wanna stay there? Or have some fun?

          4. Why curl in the ball and drool… the pool water here is blue and inviting, and I can make mean chicken fajitas and the tamarind dip. My friend speaks the same language without ‘being enlightened’, and Iowa fields may look good in the autumn.

            You unconsciously expressed a belief that seeing things in their unvanished state somehow translates into misery.

            Not so. Dreaming translates into misery. You see… I have nothing to disappoint me, as everything is seen exactly as is.

          5. It’s not clear yet, but we’re both heading toward the same page… I think. As I said, wordplay is frustrating.
            “… seeing things in their unvarnished state somehow translates into misery.”
            No misery at all, post Clarity.
            Upon reflection, what I am saying is that playing in the arena of assisting others in deconstructing thinking processes, logical deduction techniques, identifying limiting cognitive biases, finding evermore hidden false beliefs, emotional attachments, etc etc etc… hanging out in the details of it all while interacting with other people, and the endless wordplay that accompanies it, has been 99.9% pointless for me. And probably for the others, too. In my limited experience of pointing at the moon for others, I have seen only a couple of cases where the First Step occurred, and frankly, I doubt that I had much if anything to do with it. Seems to me those two could have been just walking down the street and the same thing would have happened. They were ripe.
            So in retrospect, I have no regrets, but I do see, for me, that going into the trenches with anyone is pretty much useless… unless it’s one-on-one, face-to-face. If the temptation occurs again, perhaps I am now better at discerning? If I engage, will I do it differently?
            Definitely.
            And my time here has also reminded me that I certainly won’t do that kind of thing online anymore.

          6. @Robert
            What you said above. All so.

            I simply saw early on that futility of any attempts to ‘teach’ life lessons, although the depth of human inability to disengage from the known tales and examine new information was somewhat shocking to learn. I thought (naively at the time) that all people have free minds.

            If Mr. McMordie and the lies hadn’t happened in my path – there would have been no website and no me digging under the McKenna throne. I would have gone on with my life quietly, and I doubt ‘enlightenment’ topics would have figured anywhere in it.

            Alas… I had to share the discovered factual info about snake oil sellers and the snake oil they sell.

            As I said.. it is not a finished business. Yet.

        2. “I have seen only a couple of cases where the First Step occurred, and frankly, I doubt that I had much if anything to do with it.”

          Yes, I think that’s probably true. I’m realizing more and more how impossible it is to help other people in regards to mental and emotional things. People seem to just do what they do regardless of what you tell them. Everything, all the information is out there for the taking. So if someone wants it they can go and take it. That’s very rare, though it seems.

          I’d rather help someone move their stuff into a new appartment, or give their living room a new lick of paint. Practical help is always appreciated and usually has direct observable results, also it doesn’t come with any emotional baggage,

          1. “…practical help.”
            Yes, definitely. Instead of endless mental claptrap, a real, physical mano-a-mano bond is created that makes a much better foundation for whatever might come in the future. After that bond is established, a few choice words about all this mental stuff can maybe take better root.

          2. I dont see unsolicited advise ever becoming popular. Basically it’s an imposition and people will push against it. If you want to emulate someone’s way of being or success, philosophy ect you have no problem locating, asking or studying them.

            The discrepancy is in the fact that most people are too busy tending to others, looking at what they are doing rather than working on themselves. Pointing the finger rather than turning it around.

            I’d rather every one just worked on bringing their best selves to the table rather than trying to solve the worlds problems. Thanks in advance.

          3. j( – “…unsolicited advice… Basically it’s an imposition and people will push against it.”
            Definitely. I’m fortunate. In my line of work, people come to me with all manner of physical problems. Their pain and desperation often = a heightened ability to listen and follow instructions. If all goes well at dealing with that level of pain and confusion, they feel a helluva lot better, and gain a lot of confidence knowing how to live well for a better future.
            Right about that time they are often open to some choice words of advice that might crack open the next door…

          4. Hi Robert, I’m really curious as to what it is that you do. You mentioned your job quitte a few times but never really went into specifics. What are some of the most common problems that you help people with and what could be done to prevent or cure them?

          5. Hi Jimmy – As a physician I work mostly with fasting patients. I oversee water fasts for people, often with long-term chronic disease, addictions, etc. Many have degenerated quite badly, having relied on conventional medicine and its drugs and other palliative therapies. I like to get at the actual cause of disease, and teach people how to live better so that they no longer create their own problems. For me, it’s all about “teaching a man how to fish.” Water fasting greatly helps this process, and dramatically empowers people to see what they themselves are capable of. Their own body does all the work, while at the same time they learn and reprogram how to live healthfully.
            It’s all quite easy, actually. The fundamental problem, like in every other area of life, is all the BS inside people’s heads.

          6. Thanks for your reply, Robert. At one point I had to water fast for a few weeks because of a congenital heart condition I have. It’s just that right, drinking very little water for a certain period?
            Didn’t know it helped with other problems as well.

          7. Actually it’s best to drink plenty of water, but yes, only water. Anywhere from a few days to a few weeks, depending on many things.
            Nearly all chronic conditions can be improved/eliminated by fasting: https://www.health24.com/Medical-schemes/PMB-and-chronic-disease/List-of-chronic-diseases-20120721
            Fasting has suddenly become quite a fad lately, so that’s an excellent development. It’s all over media, youtube, blogs. People are waking up to it. Very self-empowering. Conventional medicine sucks at chronic disease, but that’s where they make the most money, by far. People begin to realize they can walk away from medicine, relegating it to it’s proper place: emergencies, trauma, surgery.

  20. Hello, sorry this is a bit off-topic, but sort of ties into the ‘Leaving Neverland’ docu-drama theme going once here. Anywho, I recently watched the Netflix doc ‘Wild Wild Country’ which tells the story of the Oregon commune Osho and his cohorts founded in the 80’s (Rajneeshpuram). Much like ‘Leaving Neverland’ it’s an engrossing series and I thoroughly reccomend giving it a go – if not for the McKenna/McMordie-esq scandal, watch it for the plucky and ruthless Ma Anand Sheela. A fascinating woman, very ‘real’ and clear in her conviction. Hmmm, who does that remind me of??? 😉 Heres an interesting article about her: https://thebodedit.com/wellbeing/the-making-of-ma-anand-sheela

    If you do watch it, would love to hear your thoughts!

    1. Hi Oliver,
      I watched the documentary and while ago and I really enjoyed it.

      What do you mean when you said Sheela is very ‘real’?

      To me she seemed like a psychopathic woman who even went so far as to poison and potentially kill people that were in her way. She ticks many of the boxes on the list of traits and characteristics of a psychopath.
      She is very fascinating, I agree on that but I hope I never meet anyone like her.

  21. Just a thought.. I’m not done with the whole McKenna/McMordie story and the Shangri La tales around it all that our ‘masters’ are so adept at weaving.

    AND this website is in a desperate need of the overhaul; it has become hard to follow. I might take it off-line for a while.

    Also. A friend and self are considering an up and down, coast to coast road trip in the States.

    Much to see and do. Could be fun.

    1. What’s with the McKenna/McMordie/McDonald’s hamburgers thing that’s not done yet? What’s still driving you about it? Seems you’ve plumbed that to the Nth degree and the cows came home. What remains?
      I did do some poking around the website, and yes… got confused and out-of-sync with it several times, so I gave up.
      Bien Viaje!

      1. “What’s with the McKenna/McMordie/McDonald’s hamburgers thing that’s not done yet? What’s still driving you about it?

        What’s driving it still.. for one, Mr McMordie once said “I am a living proof that anything is possible”. And this is certainly true. His forum keeps generating cash using deceit. Me don’t like.

        Secondly, I have such a vast data archive now relating to everything Jed McKenna, it would be a shame if all that disappeared into the abyss of the internet and history. Only a fraction of it all got published on this site.

        Remember, none of this investigation was my initial intent. It evolved so, probably because Mr McMordie lied, which made me determined to get to the truth.

      2. “I did do some poking around the website, and yes… got confused and out-of-sync with it several times”

        The McMordie story is under “Impersonating Jed McKenna”. It is finished, although much info remains undisclosed on my part.

        My own rants are under “Myth Articles”. Still going, but probably need to categorise it or some such.

        Hard to maintain both the content and the design on my own. It would mean investing more money, which then becomes an expensive hobby.

  22. “The problem is the same as watching another to ride a bicycle, but not getting on the bike yourself – you never learn to cycle.”

    This really gets me thinking!! How I understand what you wrote is that life’s lessons are to be experienced for oneself to learn them. And since everyone is different we’re all on our own.

    Yes, I agree, the site really could use an overhaul. And if you decide to go on the road trip hope you’ll have fun!

      1. I’ll think about it. It also largely depends on what you want with the website.

        I have no experience in web design so I don’t know what would be reasonable, but having a forum where we can reply would make things more organised I think. A new thread for each Myth Article where we can make replies.
        I like all the pictures you made yourself that you add to the articles and

        Having a forum would probably mean more work in respect to moderating it, based on your ‘Onion router’ post there are a few individuals who could be a hassle.

        Btw, I like all the pictures you made yourself that you add to the articles and hope you’ll keep doing that.

        1. Thank you, Jimmy.

          I don’t feel the need for moderation. In all this time I only deleted one comment, and in another – asked the poster to post in English only.

          People usually leave themselves if one does not feed their emotional hunger. But of course any website can be hijacked, potentially. WordPress takes care of spam, security and so on, and as I am stupid when it comes to managing websites – I will stick with WordPress. Jed McKenna does, for nearly twenty years.

          I need to think about the site organisation more carefully, but you are correct – it depends on the purpose of its existence.

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