A Letter To Real Jed McKenna

I sent this email on the 21st of December 2019. Out of 30 mentioned email addresses 4 turned out to be live, therefore, it is reasonable to suggest that someone at least received and read the below.

Around 6 email addresses were of undetermined status. The rest (around 20) bounced.

Nothing was changed from the original email except substituting names for Wally’s head. Seems fitting.

I didn’t send it in the hope of a reply; I sent this to confirm to myself (and to you, whether you give a shit or not) that the person behind the Jed McKenna moniker is truly not interested in making an attempt to right the wrong.

Sure sure… I know in some of your universes there is no right or wrong and nothing undesirable ever happens… those of you can crawl back into your personal World Of Warcraft fantasy  now or return to watching Avengers: Endgame. Here’s the popcorn..Popcorn

The full text of Jed McKenna letter goes as such:

 

So that you know,  Wally Head  .. I’m sending this to every potential email of yours, past and present; may induce a nostalgic feel in you. I also understand that Wisefoolpress domain is set to accept all domain-based mail, and most other addresses are dead, but not all, some are live. I also invented a few at a guess. That’s 30 email addresses, sorry.

You need to finish reading this and decide what you want to do.

 

In over two years I have uncovered the identities of three guys who’d have preferred to stay hidden. These are Kenneth McMordie, our indomitable Canadian impostor… , Wally Head the guy who made it his mission to meet Jed and succeeded (you even googled him)…;  and Wally Head  aka Wally Head  aka Jed McKenna – you.

I didn’t set out to dig your identity; the Invisible Guru lies made me interested enough to see where the rabbit hole leads, and that has taken me to you. Being obsessively meticulous in the research about ‘two Jeds’ was prompted by: 1. you both lying in own unique ways, and 2. the fact that I hate mysteries.

So there.. to every Mid-Western ‘Jed McKenna’ yin there is always some Russian ‘U.G.’ yang.

I continue to occasionally write on the website and continue to ponder the ironies of you becoming that thing you had gotten your witty teeth into all those years back: the Spiritual Idol. It doesn’t matter that you didn’t intend to become one.. you know the human nature and the state of the human condition. You could have paused, thought and predicted this to be the eventual outcome; countless ‘truth tellers’ become the lie in the end, not always through their own fault, and sometimes absolutely by own cunning design. I covered that aspect of reality at opening the EM website. This is the factual basis of all major religions (I was spared from the bs thanks [the big breasted] god[dess]).

So what the ferk.. with your intelligence and understanding of all the vagarities of this world.. you made the offering of a writing.. could you not see the cult-like nature these sorts of things prompt? Could you not have predicted that it would inspire a jedvaita religion, given your talent for lacing all with underhanded acid sarcasm? Funny that humans mostly miss that sarcasm too.

The answer is the following: it didn’t matter whether you’d foreseen the creation of another spiritual monster because you saw it even then. But desire for non-participation in the bullshit still requires the survival push and as such – participation in the bullshit. The world doesn’t magically disappear just because one has convinced themselves of its non-existence, right?

No one is free from realities of physical living, so let’s get down to realities now.

One thing that pisses me off (do you remember L.? ‘She’ wished women were more direct? well, your wish has come true)… is that you are letting Kenneth get away with it. I am not saying you should grab your longest sharpest pen, jump on a plane to Cambodia, chase him down to one of the whore houses and stab him with your pen until he wows a bloody promise to never impersonate a spiritual writer again.. Not at all, and he is not that much of a whore master, although who can resist huh..

I’m saying that you made no effort whatsoever, other than your lame disclaimer in tiny letters at the bottom of one page. No naming him, no stating the Invisible Guru forum (gotta love the name) is a fake. Nothing. Zilch, nada, zero, nought, blah.

I have much respect for your mind. We have arrived at the same point in life via different initial parameters. You were born with ability to think for yourself (some born great huh..), I saw it in your non spiritual writings. I acquired it through being  so emotionally charged and frustrated with the absence of any valid answers that I dumped every fantasy and learnt to think through much of the world and my own garbage with cold precision. Paradox, I know, in the presence of emotionally choking states, but it was done, and killed.

Just like the fucking Buddha who surprise surprise(!!) was then cunning enough to go for the alms, and not the first one to choose survival over the principle. Just like you did.

Fine, who am I to say otherwise, you give humans the lies that they want. But. I repeat.. I am pissed off that Ken gets away every time. He swindled scores of humans in the past; people contacted me and told me about other, unpublished dealings of his. Now he is inviting folks to Cambodia to attend his courses as a Jed McKenna figure. The ‘virtual ashram’ has shrunk after my revelations, but still serves as a recruitment ground. Newbies believe his story that he was the basis for your enlightened man ‘Jed’, and he cut off all means of contacting anyone there.

Despite the ridiculous monkey predictable past suggestions (usually from females, most can’t think to save a life) – I have never paid a penny and have never been involved with the man. In fact, I hardly know him, certainly much less than the devotees he is acquiring now in SE Asia in the name of ‘Jed McKenna’. You’ve got to give it to him tho.. Ken’s lived a scandalously interesting in many ways life.

The MODEL for YOUR story, don’t you find it ironic, the story about truth is steeped in mystery and inspired scamming? And you remain silent.

So Wally Head  … fuck that. You have to say something, and I am asking you not to be a cunt, but to choose decency above the animal state. Despite your stubborn insistence on being a ‘no self’ entity, you are a flesh and bones human man with a strong ability to affect others with your mind. This Wally Head  entity does not ‘appear’ to be (that’s a lame excuse for graduating as Hannibal Lector, clutching a clean slate in one’s hand). This Wally Head  is, alive and breathing and farting at times. I can’t figure out whether this is part of the money making yarn or you truly believe this nonsense of no self. If the former – you lied. If the latter – you swallowed some toxic shit in your younger spiritual indoctrination years and are holding on tight.

No matter. Hmm, just imagined your ‘no self’ dying for #2 and nowhere to.. Sorry. Natural laws are unbeatable, no matter how hard we are trying to play with them in our heads.

You can imagine that over two years of digging has provided me with a pretty accurate picture of your past and present life. I have photos, details of your moving around, your family, your past writings.. blah blah. If any stranger out there knows anything about  Wally Head ‘s life – it is me. I would say even Wally Head  doesn’t have as much information, meticulously collected and catalogued, dots connected. It is.. let me tell you… 14GB of research archives. It is by all means not all your life, but enough to figure out its general curves and roundabouts. Yours was a clever setup based on one premise – one cannot prove what does not exist. All you have to do is deny it consistently, and voila! who can prove  you are the writer? Who can disprove you are the writer?

Brilliant.

But.. I can weave a very convincing heart stopping tale, supported with great factual details in the same way I did with Kenneth. The audience has developed some trust in my presentation of real events, since I never attempted to sell them anything and have no reason to whitewash. I am not motivated by money even though I don’t have any, or lucrative ‘teaching’ career as that would be a blatant lie, and you advised Wally Head  once on teaching?? or book writing even though many asked, or a guru admiration, or whatever other goodies motivate human monkeys to remain in the monkey state.

When one never wants anything from humans.. it’s liberating.

But I want something from you. Here is the dilemma… right now I am considering my desire to share all with the world versus the principle of  ‘Do onto others as you wish to be done onto you’ (fuck that, trust me having principles complicates life somewhat). As I wouldn’t want my life story to be read by everyone – I don’t wish that for you either. I’ve come to appreciate the fact that you (mostly) live by what you preach, and despite the books’ perceived arrogance – you aren’t arrogant in real life and even modest. Quite old-fashion good seed, in fact.

But on the other hand, Kenneth’s lies pissed me off enough to check out his scamming activities.

And you pissed me off by condoning his deceit through maintaining silence, aside from the fact that you are writing about a millennia old con job. No one is going anywhere except six feet under, and that understanding was mine from childhood. Spirituality has only a toothless smile to offer, it should be confined to a children books’ shelf it is that impotent.

Stop being silent on this matter and help me shut down Ken’s forum. This is my request, wrapped up in a vague threat of exposure, fuck me, yes. But Wally Head , after two years  of full immersion in dirt, lies and public arrows in the ass I’ve near lost a sense of compassion for human beings and reaching a point of not giving a shit: get it all out and walk away from this stupidity of artificially created mystery.

The EM could become a great source of all ‘Jed McKenna’ related material, all for no penny at all. I even envisioned a Wikipedia article, one way of immortalizing the Jed McKenna/Ken McMordie story.. in a ‘catch me if you can’ sense. That, however, according to my internal sense of decency would be going too far simply because you are not willing to be a public figure.

I am a tad warmer in physical life. I have no wish for you other than “Keep on living for as long as you can”. The world feels a tiny bit cozier when knowing there are human monkeys who can paddle the sea in a straighter line. And stop writing  half truths. Tell them how it REALLY is, Nietzsche and deathbed Jed style, instead of whacking them on the head for being your ardent disciples. Break their hearts. This is the only thing that works.. if one is after playing with the minds of others. 


Finally.. in one of your books (don’t remember which, I never read any of them in full) Paul says something on the lines of ‘There is no…?’
There is no enlightenment. There is no Maya. There are no miracles. What you see is what you get… if one can get to see it clearly. Then you die.

Hope you’d have enough common sense to respond in some way. Swearing permitted, but I don’t think you are the type, and  Wally Head …. I don’t know how to sugar-coat things, including human to human interaction.

Tano

 P.S. My toe hurts, and the world stops. How about that?

 

Teal Header 5

Wally Girl

HAPPY NEW YEAR, FOLKS!

Red

NOTICE: The EM website will go offline for some weeks in the New Year. This is so that I could play around with the settings and make changes.

158 thoughts on “A Letter To Real Jed McKenna

  1. Thank you for sharing, Tano

    The email sounds/feels like an appeal to the ‘conscience’ of someone – who in his first three books has not used the word ‘conscience,’ even once. Maybe, he does not possess one, or the one that he does is of some kind, which is not the same as yours.

    In the ToE, the word appears as follows.

    ‘Brahmanic consciousness is without features or attributes. It has no conscience….,’ and is the one eating popcorns.

    Further; he does not ‘do heart,’ (though ‘I don’t do heart’ is bs); yet you talk of heart with him – (and remember.. you do not emote..) – while wrapping an emotion in each sentence.

    You and ‘Wally’ are the peaks of two different mountains… an analogy, Osho gives. One mountain-top does not and cannot ‘meet’, far less acknowledge – in any sense – the other one; of being the mountain with the view from the top.

    Stop writing to him and give up all hope of a response from him. He would not reply to you. Might not be a bad idea to dump all gigabytes here and see if that is how you’d be done with writing about him…which essentially means writing ‘FOR’ him, and his enterprise, for free.

    1. “an appeal to the ‘conscience’”

      yes, and (not)mentioning the word in books is irrelevant. Actions, not words, demonstrate what sort of person one is dealing with, don’t you think?

      I don’t hope for a reply as you said; least of all some action. I wanted to see the absence of a response to the matter of scamming. That tells me more about specifically the human condition of Jed McKenna than any books.

      Not that I had my doubts, but being of a scientific turn of mind – I need to see confirmation.

      There is a curious ambiguity about the whole business of writing books about ‘truth’, right? Or writing books about how to become rich. These two seem to produce a faint stench of a lie somehow, at least for me.

      Thank you for the analogy. While the view from the top may be exactly the same for both peaks.. the slopes seem to be facing in the opposite directions. i.e. having similar worldviews and perspectives does not guarantee the meeting of minds.

      Who are we all? What’s inside? Can you murder in cold blood for instance? Or lie for years? Or pretend to be someone you are not? Wear a mask in order to follow your hidden agenda?

      And humans discuss consciousness, self, existence…. as if those are some abstract notions in books.

      P.S. There is something strange about your entire post. I can’t put my finger on it.

      1. Congratulations Tano.

        You ended this level of the mystery. Jed McKenna – the one and only – took the time to reply. Yay! You have succeeded where others have succeeded to fail. Bing bing bing!

        What will the next level reveal for us? Dancing monkeys? A hat for first prize? Another reply from Jed.. or shall we call him by his former name; Peder? Who cares.. Jed doesn’t; Peder does; a ego-driven person by default. Claiming not to be, but love all the attention.

        Looking forward to the gigabytes of research. May I make a humble prediction from a non-enlightened ordinary fellow? Thank you very much, appreciated: As interest rises you will use the time to make a few posts to build the hype before revealing clues.

        There’s a show, my dentist recently told me about, called ‘See.’ They are about to drop a second season of the show. She, my dentist, was furious that every time a show hits a great rating on IMDB or gets positive attention they will extend the story line for seasons and years to come. Mostly, they include tons of irrelevant stuff to justify the length of the episodes and/or seasons. As she – my dentist – put it, “why don’t they just make one great season filled with roller coaster action and cash in big time? Then everyone would get on with their life and go get addicted to another show and all it’s drama.”

        Now, here’s my conclusion: they won’t because the attention goes away too quickly. Which leads to loss of profit.

        Why am I taking my time to write about my frustrated dentist and a show, which I never watched? Because I see no difference between your blog and the show.

        You crave the attention. Even though you claim not to.

        What’s the purpose of this blog? Reveal the identity of JM? Expose K. McMordie and his fraud? Ego tripping under the false claims of serving justice for world peace; saving seekers from the fraud they want to be fooled by?

        Post your assumptions, material and reasonings and – like Jed wrote – get on with your life. Like the rest of us. One season worth to remember.

        1. “Jed McKenna – the one and only – took the time to reply. Yay!”

          Did you read the post at all? I have no idea what you are talking about. I never received any correspondence from Jed McKenna and never will, for obvious reasons.

          “or shall we call him by his former name; Peder?”

          Is that a wild guess on your part? I am not fond of those, since having learnt my lessons of two years.

          “Looking forward to the gigabytes of research. ”

          You wish…. As mentioned before here.. I will share with the chosen few. I am a cunt like that you see.

          ” “why don’t they just make one great season filled with roller coaster action and cash in big time? Then everyone would get on with their life”

          You cannot get on with your life because of this website (inferred by association from your dentist example)? Seriously??

          This suggestion would mean writing a book, laying all out in ‘one great season’ and ‘cashing in big time’. Wanna sponsor?

          “You crave the attention.”

          Absolutely. Give me more, you floppy mouth. I want MORE ATTENTION, especially from supportive voices like yours. It is invigorating.

          “What’s the purpose of this blog? Reveal the identity of JM? Expose K. McMordie and his fraud? Ego tripping under the false claims of serving justice for world peace; saving seekers from the fraud they want to be fooled by?”

          The answer is:

          1. Reveal the identity of JM – in progress, to the chosen ones
          2. To expose KM and his fraud – accomplished
          3. Ego trriiiiiiiiiiiiiipping – accomplished
          4. Serving justice for world piece – was not in the business plan
          4. Save seekers from the fraud – in progress

          “get on with your life. Like the rest of us. ”

          And let me ask you.. what the hell are you doing here?

          Let me waste my life in the way I see fit, you patronising cunt. Go and get on with your own life. I am not seeking followers or book patrons.

          **************************
          Now, the TRUTH that you withheld from your piece…. Two points.

          1. You personally want to know the name and you personally are fed up that I am not sharing. Why, you should have just said so: upset and angry that you had to read a big piece about the letter and NO FUCKING NAME, WOMAN!! FUCK YOU, YOU WITCH!

          2. You love to hate this site, and you hate to love it. The drama, the expectations, the name calling, the finger pointing.. all good fun for you folks. In real physical life to come up to some stranger and tell them what you think they should do with their life – would be unthinkable, right? But here…. you love the drama. I am giving you plenty, and you can’t get enough.

          Folks like you are exactly the factor that prevents me from making the name public, being the money and attention grabbing whore that I am.

          1. You see how simple human behaviorism is? We say A, you go B etc.

            I very much know how this show is gonna unfold. Great drama and worth the trouble, I’d say. However, the cast would do a better job without all the feely porn and cut straight to the chase. Name or no name.

            There is no hating on my part.. there is no reason for you to be passive-aggressive every time someone points a finger at you.

            In fact, that’s the real Jed-hunt you should be doing. Point your focus inward and fight those layers of defense mechanisms.. or wait.. for whatever reason do not do that…

            Yes – I‘d love to know his name. Even though, it’s obvious it’s Peder Sweeney. My reasoning? I like his writing style and have an eager to know if he wrote under other names or not. That’s the real hunt for me: What did Jed McKenna aka Peder Sweeney aka Peter Johnson write besides JM stuff? I’m obsessed, not with JM, but his way of writing.

          2. You conveniently ignored my first point about not having read the article in full. Can you tell me why you ignored it?

            “there is no reason for you to be passive-aggressive every time someone points a finger at you.”

            Children in the playground point fingers. Adults discuss things in an adult-like manner.

            “Point your focus inward and fight those layers of defense mechanisms”

            This is another finger. We are not having a counseling session here, and you are not in a position to act as a self-appointed counselor. It is not needed here.

            If you want an adult discussion – be an adult. Or leave.

      2. Who are we all? What’s inside? Can you murder in cold blood for instance? Or lie for years? Or pretend to be someone you are not? Wear a mask in order to follow your hidden agenda?

        1. She mentions heart and love in every passage. While I do like Enya’s music, her lyrics go with what the majority of people accept as valid interesting subjects.. heart break, love, suffering those and etc. etc.

          I cannot relate to this anymore. Just think… most songs out there are about the most primitive state of a human: passing off sexual desire and feelings of internal loneliness as ‘love’.

          As a result.. they sing serenades and try to ensnare unsuspecting potential ‘partners’, and all for what? Because they feel so inadequate inside, because they want to fuck and because in general humans crave each other’s approval.

          Believe it or not, in its first incarnation this site was all about poems. Only poems that I wrote in those two years of mad search. I produced quite a few, and people did seem to relate, but I was writing my own story through those, charged with emotion and despair and a fucking drive to understand what I couldn’t then.

          The madness stopped seven years ago, and with it – poems stopped too. Not a line since.

          Rant over.

      3. ‘There is a curious ambiguity about the whole business of writing books about ‘truth’, right? Or writing books about how to become rich. These two seem to produce a faint stench of a lie somehow, at least for me.’

        Yes…..

        Here is an incomplete list of names of people from around the world – mostly India and the West – with their net worths (in $US).

        They are all in the business of writing and speaking about ‘truth,’ in one way or another – including becoming better and richer.

        1 + Billion

        Edir Macedo
        Pat Robertson

        700 – 800 Million

        Paul Dhinakaran Baba

        500 Million

        Tony Robbins

        200 – 300 Million

        Mata Amritanandamayi
        Baba Ramdev

        120 – 180 Million

        David Oyedepo
        Sri Sri Ravishankar
        T.D. Jakes
        ? Adyashanti
        ? Sri Prem Baba

        100 – 120 Million

        Paul McKenna
        Doreen Virtue
        Tim Ferris

        70 – 80 M

        Deepak Chopra
        Morari Bapu
        Eckhart Tolle

        40 – 50 M

        Asaram Bapu
        Chris Oyakhilome
        Gurmeet Ram Rahim Singh Insaan
        Joel Osteen
        Benny Hinn

        25 – 30 M

        Creflo Dollar
        Joyce Meyer
        Rick Warren
        Billy Graham
        Kenneth Copeland
        Swami Nithyananda
        Franklin Graham
        Jack Canfield

        10 – 15 M

        Les Brown
        Jay McGraw
        Juanita Bynum
        Ernest Angley

        2 – 10 M

        Avdhoot Baba Shivanandji Maharaj
        Joseph Prince
        Satguru Jaggi Vasudev
        James Arthur Ray
        Jed McKenna

        My question/ thought/ proposal is this:

        Since you have written a letter to the poorest one among the list, how about beginning to write to the other ones too – perhaps asking them to join the cause????? :–)

        1. Gosh, who knows who all these people are. I’ve only heard of a handful.

          Source?

          Getting people ‘enlightened’ is THE perfect infinite gig. They will never run out of the easy ‘job’ as new humans are born every second, and it’s fair to say those will also be miserable and will start looking for relief…

          …at which point our ‘gurus’ will offer their embrace like you offer an embrace to your drunkard friend, alas to get him home. These guys, however, would relieve him of some cash.

          Those earnings do not materialise from an empty air.

          The poorest one on the list hey… you nearly made me shed a tear for Jed. Just keep in mind that those rich charlatans at least have names and faces, should anyone wish to feel them up.

          I never dealt with anyone who impersonates them and fleeces the flock thus… namelessly and undercover.

          Hence… no letters.

    2. “‘Brahmanic consciousness is without features or attributes. It has no conscience….,’ and is the one eating popcorns.”

      Brahmanic consciousness is a theoretical postulate. While theories serve as a framework for investigative actions, they do not reflect Reality. The resultant facts do.

      Brahman is Reality as a whole. Of course, Reality as a whole has no conscience. But I am Atman. Human. I have conscience.

      1. “Brahman is Reality as a whole. Of course, Reality as a whole has no conscience. But I am Atman. Human. I have conscience.”

        See, that’s the problem. Jed identifies with Brahman, you identify with Atman. Neither of you see that it is that identification which stands in the way. It is that identification which prevents merging between the two and in consequence the birth of an actual butterfly.
        (What kind of non-duality are we even talking about if we’re choosing only one half of the picture?)

        A butterfly doesn’t need to avoid drama, because it sees drama for what it is and as a consequence it’s the drama that avoids the butterfly. (And it seems like our “butterfly” is about to find out how futile it is to try to hide from oneself. How what we don’t want to meet in ourselves will sooner or later manifest as our reality).

        A butterfly doesn’t see human reality in terms of right and wrong, but of true and false. A butterfly doesn’t need conscience, it doesn’t need morality. A caterpillar does.

          1. @kutkatt

            I find it a little lowly that you respond like that. You are a worse type of ignorant than she is.

          2. If you don’t understand her, or you think it is not true, then just give your opinion and elaborate. How could she possibly respond to that reply of yours without sounding defensive? Point out what you don’t get and don’t be an arse. Point out what you think is wrong too, maybe it would help her, maybe not.

          3. Could you elaborate on what you meant when you said ‘You are a worse type of ignorant than she is.’? Genuinely curious what you mean exactly.

        1. @petorikoru

          Yeah, point taken, you’re right, was being an arse posting that. I was blowing of some steam and directing it at Joanna.

          Lately there’s a lot of frustration building up because of my life and because I don’t fucking get it at all. The content of Joanna’s post was irritating to me because it doesn’t help at all with figuring things out. And my comment is how my frustration came out. I’d be better off just posting about my frustration than posting a demeaning comment to someone else.

          Cheers for taking the time to let me know what you thought about my comment.

    3. __________________

      “My bonny lad,” she says softly.
      I don’t speak.
      “A wild ass of a man,” she says.
      “Excuse me?”
      She reads from the Bible. “He shall be a wild ass of a man, his hand against every man and every man’s hand against him; and he shall dwell over against all his kinsmen.'”
      “Who shall?”
      “Ishmael,” she replies. “That’s what God said about Ishmael.”
      I don’t say anything.
      “Melville wrote to Nathaniel Hawthorne about Moby-Dick; ‘I have written a wicked book and feel as spotless as the lamb.'”
      I nod. “The Nihilist’s Bible,” I say. “The Truth-Seeker’s Handbook.”
      “Yes,” she says “I guess that’s what it is. It would be absurd to suggest Melville didn’t know perfectly well what he was writing. He should have just called it that.”
      “Don’t make it about Melville,” I tell her. “It’s not just Melville. There’s another author; we might as well call it the ocean.
      Melville didn’t get what he wanted from Moby-Dick, but that other author always gets exactly what it wants. If you try to approach the book through Melville, you’ll miss. The ocean is the true author, but the ocean has no hands. It operates through us.”
      She nods. “I think I understand that. Come in please,” she says.
      “It’s okay. Have a seat.”

      ___________________

      I … ponder the ironies of you becoming that thing you had gotten your witty teeth into all those years back: the Spiritual Idol. It doesn’t matter that you didn’t intend to become one..

      You could have paused, thought and predicted this to be the eventual outcome….

      So….with your intelligence and understanding of all the vagarities of this world.. you made the offering of a writing.. could you not see the cult-like nature these sorts of things prompt?
      Could you not have predicted that it would inspire a jedvaita religion, given your talent for lacing all with underhanded acid sarcasm?

      The answer is the following: it didn’t matter whether you’d foreseen the creation of another spiritual monster because you saw it even then.

      But desire for non-participation in the bullshit still requires the survival push and as such – participation in the bullshit.
      The world doesn’t magically disappear just because one has convinced themselves of its non-existence, right?

      …Just like the fucking Buddha who surprise surprise(!!) was then cunning enough to go for the alms, and not the first one to choose survival over the principle. Just like you did.

      _____________________

      Thinking (again) about the mountains and their slopes in the context of the above two passages – one from SiE (a conversation between Mary and Jed) and a snippet from your email – will it be correct to surmise that the thing you are calling ‘survival/ survival push;’ Jed is calling that same thing ‘the ocean?’

      If so, then do you think that Jed or Buddha, you (or any ordinary mortals) could ever over-ride what survival (ocean) wanted from them? Does it exonerate them in any way?

      If not – and in any case – what is your preferable term or word, to refer to ‘the ocean?’

      1. Hi Enn,

        “will it be correct to surmise that the thing you are calling ‘survival/ survival push;’ Jed is calling that same thing ‘the ocean?’”

        The short answer is ‘no’, it would not be correct.

        The long answer below.

        ‘Ocean’ is another word for ‘the perfect intelligence’, but Jed is being obnoxiously (from my perspective) cryptic here. Perfect intelligence is not some separately existing entity, and sure, it has no hands, as it has no ‘it’.

        It is the mind attribute, the same attribute that made Jed ponder and then write, the same attribute that made Oppenheimer develop the atomic bomb, the same attribute that lead to the discovery of the DNA, the same attribute that allowed Hitler take complete control of the country.

        The same attribute that made you ask the above question.

        What I was saying is much simpler and has nothing to do with that Moby Dick passage Mary quoted. You were born, without asking to be born. Now you have the innate drive to live, to survive, just like any biological organism out there.

        Animals have no other choice but to kill. They have to, in order to eat. In a human world there are many ways to survive, some clean, some dirty and most are on the scale between clean and dirty.

        One can BE in their wisdom and clarity, and share it through the way they are (serial killers too!!). That one is free and therefore will not bring relief from survival pressures. You’d still need a job or a business.

        Or one can write about wisdom and clarity and enlightenment, and charge for that. If you do a good job – through that writing it will remove survival pressures, but considering that wisdom and clarity are self-obtained goodies, and enlightenment is a myth… not a clear-cut way of surviving in this world.

        The joke is… after all that struggle and sometimes building empires.. one kicks the bucket, carried off to the final resting place, and.. that’s that.

        Even the fact you may have left children – means nothing. Do you personally remember/know your great great grand parents? Sure they contributed to one’s DNA and existence.. and?

  2. I think the author of the books doesn’t give a damn about having his real name made public. His business will continue, real name or not ; for him, people talking about him, asking questions (what’s his real name?, who is he? etc.) is free publicity, free advertising, free marketing.

    If he has read your letter, here is what he thinks : “Yes, Tano, go ahead, just keep talking about me and my books, the more people mention my name (Jed Mckenna or the real name) the more I sell.”

    He laughs !!

    And if he’s reading this very comment, he’s also laughing, because I’m just adding more fuel, by talking about him and his crappy books. 😉

    He doesn’t a give a shit about your website, Tano. On the contrary, he is happy when people talk about him, good or bad : it’s good for his pitiful business.

    Why would he care about having his real name being revealed ? He hasn’t done anything illegal, publishing crappy books (as you know, I could only read the first half of the first book, since it was really lame) is not illegal.

    There are thousands of rubbishy books on the market written by rubbishy “spiritual teachers/spiritual speakers” whose real names are known, they are not disturbed or investigated. Why would he ? 😉

    And you are not even sure about his real name ! So all of this uncertainty about the name just adds more fuel to the “Jed Mckenna mystery”, and that “mystery” is good for his business.

    I tell you : he’s laughing. 😉

  3. I’m sure. I have no 100% proof, and hence it is not made public. There is a difference.

    None of what you pointed at – is of any concern to anyone involved, either myself or ‘Jed’. I do what I do. ‘Jed’ does what he does. We all express who we are.

    Would you have preferred that I had never opened this site? Never spoke of Kenneth’s scam? Never investigated ‘Jed’ name and business?

    In the end all of us will end up as ash, and I always keep this understanding in mind. I am sure so does ‘Jed’.

    I get up every day expecting to be dead by the end of it, and that is as true as the sunlight.

    You always look at things from a very narrow perspective, Cedric. And many do, that’s not a problem. The problem is YOU specifically are very shouty and pushy about it. You always speak with such certainty about everything, while failing to notice own ignorance.

    In a nutshell… that was the reason for banning you. You are too arrogant to see own ignorance.

    Before gaining some serious understandings I was NEVER SURE about things, and so I kept silent. I WAS SILENT, because I instictively knew that I was ignorant of many things.

    You – shout.
    P.S. I corrected the typo. Thanks for pointing to it.

    1. ”I get up every day expecting to be dead by the end of it, and that is as true as the sunlight.”

      That’s an extreme way of saying it. Don’t you mean that you are aware that each moment could be your last? I assume you plan ahead in life? You can somewhat assume that you will grow old. Not saying you will guaranteed, but we have graphs. We know a percentage dies suddenly while too young.

      I’ve attempted to have deep realization of death too, but it was causing me a lot of anxiety to constantly consider this might be my last moment. Increased awareness of it does help you to be more aware and make different choices in life. And I did make different choices since last year. But my anxiety has been increasing a lot, and I do my best to stay strong. But it’s becoming harder, and I start wondering if feeling this day in day out, is any good, since my mental en physical health is slowly getting worse. The alternative neither seems very attractive though.

      So tell me please, do you live each moment with death awareness? How does this awareness manifest in your life, how does it affect you? Are you glad to have it?

      Somewhere I just feel like being death aware is waste of time, because it comes when it comes and it is eternal. But life isn’t, you aren’t. You’re only now, until you’re not but that’s beyond you, literally. Why constantly bring it into your mind?

      1. that each moment could be your last? I assume you plan ahead in life?”

        I wake up every day surprised to be still alive. I plan, but very loosely and without expectations. I will not bullshit here and say that I’ve got some mystical agreement with the universe to see me through; that’s just Jed’s personal delusion cum literary device.

        So tell me please, do you live each moment with death awareness?”

        Not each moment, but certainly each day; it is a backdrop to my existence. If you remember Jed wrote about it extensively too and urges people to consider it in depth.

        I said somewhere here that people are afraid to fall all the way down into the dark pit. To the very bottom. They usually break the fall and either stop, patch it up (therapy, drinking, pushing the thoughts away willfully and so on)… OR they hang in limbo: not quite fallen to see it in all its scary glory, and unable to patch it and climb back up.

        You are that second one. I would never advise the plugging of holes in the sinking ship. Sink! All the way down, since you cannot patch anything up anymore; the inner voice is too strong to burst into flames.

        Explore it. It is quite illuminating, and there is no grief after the initial shock, just clear awareness, always.

        1. Hi, Tano. You’ve mentioned your views on therapy and you dislike a couple of times in passing. Could you explain why you dislike it? I’m guessing it has something to do with how in therapy you are often encouraged to see yourself in a positive light, working on a better self-image and things of that nature.

          The reason I’m asking is that I am in group therapy myself, and I am in my first year of studying psychology.

          1. I’ll ask you those below; perhaps then you can answer your own question.

            Do you reckon therapists people go to – are all human adults and have a perfect understanding of existence, including human existence?

            Do you reckon therapists know who you specifically are and what your needs are (aside from the basic one-two-three of ‘water, food, shelter’)?

            Do you reckon therapists can see into YOUR specific mind and know what it is like to be you?

          2. “Do you reckon therapists people go to – are all human adults and have a perfect understanding of existence, including human existence?”

            No, chances of finding a therapist like that are slim if not impossible. But finding an incredibly incompetent therapist is unfortunately quite big, I’ve read some stories of people where I am amazed at some of the shit some therapists do.

            “Do you reckon therapists know who you specifically are and what your needs are (aside from the basic one-two-three of ‘water, food, shelter’)?”

            No, even after filling out countless tests and questionnaires they still have a very limited ideaabout who someone is and what their needs are.

            “Do you reckon therapists can see into YOUR specific mind and know what it is like to be you?”

            No, they can’t, no one can do that.

            Therapy is very limited in what it can do. But from personal experience I know that it is very comforting to have someone to talk to who listens to what is on my mind, and who is a stark contrast to self-hating thoughts and beliefs. Not a lot more use besides that I think, just someone to ‘hold your hand’ while you’re going through some rough shit. And maybe point out some contradictions in one’s thinking and behaving, their blind spots.

          3. ‘comforting’ is that ‘plugging of the holes in the sinking ship’ that I spoke about.

            So my question to you is this: do you want to feel comforted and come back to whatever plagues you again and again?

            If ‘yes’ – keep in the comfort zone, like most people.

            or do you want to put an end to this useless cycle once and for all?

            If ‘yes’ – turn towards the most uncomfortable things in your universe and look them in the eye.

            Then keep doing the same with ALL uncomfortable things.

          4. “do you want to feel comforted and come back to whatever plagues you again and again?”

            No, I don’t want that anymore.

            Today I was reading about neuropsychology, a they talked about how the two brain halves can function seperately and both can come to different conclusions. Also, they were stimulating someone’s brain in different parts, which produced for example a tingling sensation in someone’s fingers, or which caused someone to lose the ability to speak.

            This made me see how we are just these little biological machines, and how insignificant we are. This sinking feeling in my stomach, and all latent/unconscious belief about own significance were screaming.
            That’s what I think you are talking about, and I do see this as very valuable.

        2. Something to add, I said:

          “The reason I’m asking is that I am in group therapy myself, and I am in my first year of studying psychology.”

          But that’s only part of the reason I think. Your dislike of therapy sowed doubt in my mind about why I am studying psychology. It’s fairly easy where someone’s dislike of therapy would/could come from.

          Still, I think my strengths are my sensitivity and my empathy for other people, which are both strong assests as a psychologist. (which is how I want to make a living)

          The questions you asked a very valid, though. And a lot of therapists do more harm than good it seems.

          1. I studied psychology, got the honours.

            I now know it is a science which has no real answers.

            Jed was correct in saying that one has to use their mind without heart. You have to use your mind as a cold surgical scalpel, and emotion, your desire to get out of this mist, to know what is real – will be your fuel that will keep you going.. until you know.

            Therefore.. forget about empathy, at least for now. How can you have understanding towards others when you have no understanding about yourself?

            Real empathy is not such a shallow feeling. Therapists at large offer one like this – the fake shallow ’empathy’.

          2. Okay, I will strongly think about this, to forget about empathy.

            “How can you have understanding towards others when you have no understanding about yourself?”

            Very good point.

          3. I can be more specific, ‘my strengths are my sensitivity and my empathy.’

            Instead of empathy I think it’s more accurate to say that I feel other’s emotions strongly, so sensitivity.

            But yea I think I have only a superficial idea of empathy.

          4. I don’t fully understand why Tano is asking those specific question, since no one implied that psychologist can or should be able to look into your mind, know your exact needs, are have to be complete human adults.

            You only see one side of them, and if the are well trained and truly care about their patient’s well-being, they can help you gain insight into your problems and into your mind. They can help you see what matters to you, what you want in life and what are your obstacles. They can also give you therapies like EMDR, which helps your brain process a trauma faster. They can help you look from a different perspective when you are completely stuck in life.

            I personally find it beneficial that we have humans that can offer these things. I do believe that not all of them are truly good at what they do, and you need some luck in who is your therapist. Here in the Netherlands you can tell when you feel like they are not a good match for you, so that helps.

            I’ve always been skeptical about getting help in this sense, but I truly met some amazing therapists and think their work is good. They have more knowledge and experience in a field where most humans are lacking a lot and could use some help. I always think that it is silly we don’t get life education during school years. We are left on our own, flailing around in the darkness of ignorance, not even knowing we are ignorant.

          5. Good points, petorikoru. I think the questions Tano asked are in regard to if a therapist can help someone to get it, which is why they are one-sided.

          6. @Petorikoru

            “They can help you see what matters to you, what you want in life and what are your obstacles. They can also give you therapies like EMDR, which helps your brain process a trauma faster. They can help you look from a different perspective when you are completely stuck in life.”

            And that is why I guess you are in a search mode, right?

            How much did any of this help you to stop looking for whatever it is you are looking for?

            Look at the facts.

        3. I see how it is not a deliberate thing to have the awareness. I had it first when I was a kid, woke up crying calling my mom. I suddenly deeply realized that I was going to die one day and there was nothing I could do to stop it.

          A while ago, my feeling told me I should go and face my social fears once and for all: finish a university studies. Also so I can live doing a job I can like. I’m very much occupied with the work and dealing with the fears. You were at home when you faced many, is that right? I don’t know if I can let myself fall into the pit while I am expected to be at school all week long. I just don’t know what to expect, since I clearly feel the underlying terror for falling. Can I handle that while still doing my work properly and facing others?…

          Another thing I wonder, is what you exactly mean with exploring it. Reading about it? Imagining myself dead? Imagine the world without me? I did all those things and it triggered my anxiety, which seems a normal reaction for an organism that is wired for survival. What else am I supposed to do? How far should I go with this to fall completely into the pit?

          Not so long ago I cried about it intensely, I was devastated that it would tear me apart from the person I love the most and from my dear life. But I also decided I must take it for what it is: something I can’t change, and something that I am also born from. Through evolution but also quite literally.

          I have an off-topic question for you by the way: do you think there exist beings that are nothing like the earthly ones? I am not talking about human ghosts or green alien guys. Just beings, that function different from organic beings but also thrive in this universe, in a different way.

          1. @Petorikoru

            “You were at home when you faced many, is that right?”

            I was in work when it started, but yes.. withdrawal is necessary at some point. I did, and as you remember Jed did, isolation and a single mind to crack it.

            “what you exactly mean with exploring it. Reading about it? Imagining myself dead? Imagine the world without me? I did all those things and it triggered my anxiety”

            And what did you do with that anxiety? Tried to push it back in the corner of your mind? Anxiety is simply not good enough. Why do you think this chap Ramana got nearly paralised by the vision of own death?

            It becomes VISCERAL. It is not some simple form of imagining; the vision, the FEEL of it strikes like cold heartless thunder and leaves one scared shitless and immobilised, sometimes for days, and in his case – for weeks.

            How to get there?.. why would you want to.. it really kills the ‘you’ as you are now, why would ANYONE want that?. I certainly didn’t ask for it.

            Of most people I spoke to, even those highly aware.. most didn’t fall in that way. They understood it intellectually, but didn’t touch death. Jed did, I can see from how he writes about it.. he definitely did.

            Kenneth McMordie also did.

            This is why the perspective on life changes significantly also in those folks who nearly died physically. And in those who went into space. Anything that places the mind outside of your normal living parameters.

            “do you think there exist beings that are nothing like the earthly ones? I am not talking about human ghosts or green alien guys. Just beings, that function different from organic beings”

            Theoretically it is possible, but the probability is low.

            1. If the universe is endless then it is possible, absolutely. However…

            2. ‘organic’ means carbon based. Carbon can form up to six bonds, and due to its geometry the bonds are strong. No other element can compare to that. I’ve heard that silicon could be also the basis of life, but it needs certain conditions, such as very high temperatures which reinforce its bonds. Carbon has the number of electrons in its inner orbits complete, which makes it very stable. This means that the EXTENT to which such life forms are evolved – is most likely incomparable to Earth organic, carbon based life forms. They would be primitive organisms with a very short lifespan.

      2. “Why constantly bring it into your mind?”

        Awareness is not a deliberate act. It just is, like your arm is, not deliberately, but is. So.. it is not ‘brought into mind’ at will.

        It is.

  4. @Joanna

    “Jed identifies with Brahman, you identify with Atman. Neither of you see that it is that identification which stands in the way.”

    Urm… if you want to use these obsolete terms than here it is, in a nutshell:

    Atman = Brahman
    Brahman = Atman.

    Is that clear enough?

    Check this out with the ancient Indians, but I can tell you… I didn’t get it from them. This understanding came to me by itself. Then I looked at these Sanskrit soma intoxicated chaps.. (in passing I must admit) and shit!! look!! they got it!!!

    Who’d have guessed. They probably still thought the Earth was flat, take this into account.

    So… identification stands in the way of… what exactly for myself and ‘Jed’? In the way of ‘obtaining enlightenment’? Of understanding the nature of Reality? Of getting it how existence comes about and what drives it all? Of appreciating ‘god’ and his (her?) numerous retinue (I know you are into all that godly stuff)?

    Hahaha!!

    “A butterfly doesn’t need conscience, it doesn’t need morality. A caterpillar does.”

    I guess you fancy yourself a butterfly, while I belong to no insect animal class. I kinda remain homo sapiens, as the nature ordained.

    I’ll tell you what, Joanna… since you have no conscience, cancel the transfer of your bs to me. Instead I instruct you to use the dosh and obtain a glock, your model choice, I’m European and know nothing of those. Perhaps, someone from the States can advise…

    Next… people here could offer you a couple of jobs. They pretend to have conscience and so let others do all the dirty jobs.

    Do we have a deal, butterfly?

    Joanna, until you grow to become sincere.. I will mock the hell out of your offerings. I do not see a real person in them. I see a stiff cardboard cutout that fancies self alive.

    1. “Atman = Brahman
      Brahman = Atman.

      Is that clear enough?”

      Perfectly clear. Do you understand what that means though? To realize this is to realize that you are the only one here. I am the only one here. If I am the only one here who would I want to hurt? Myself? Why?
      And there goes the need for morality.

      It is not the physical death that we are afraid of. It is the loss of identification. And whether we are identified with our human, spirit, matter, void doesn’t really matter.
      And yes, identification = ego = resistance = blindfold, so it prevents us from seeing reality as it is.

      “I guess you fancy yourself as a butterfly”

      One doesn’t become a butterfly overnight. I still have a lot of caterpillarness in me. But I’m enough of a butterfly to see how reality looks from its POV. If there is one thing I learned from Jed it’s how the notion of being “done”, “free of bs” etc. can slow down the transition. I am always watching myself. Right now I am watching myself. Is it a caterpillar in me that is writing this comment or is it a butterfly?

      1. “To realize this is to realize that you are the only one here.”

        No, Joanna, that’s not it.

        Look, we keep going through this. I’ve realised way back that you cannot and will not go further from where you are. I learn from these interactions, do you? I mean.. you never ask any questions (I do, I asked you questions).. you never actually speak about your real experiences, instead preferring to deploy the foggy general expressions of a wannabe mystic… in a couple of years of you being here I know zilch about the inner Joanna.

        If you want to ‘teach’ anyone.. set up a shop and practice there.

        If you want to share, by all means share your personal experiences, not your muddy notions.

        If you want to challenge, ok too, challenge directly without the cryptic rhetorical questions.

        I mean… come on, why are you here? What exactly are you looking for from being here? Can you answer one simple question without “mythical” posturing?

        1. “I learn from these interactions, do you?”

          Oh, you have no idea. The need to be understood is a big one (and what a perfect place to face this one!). Can I speak, will I speak when I feel like speaking even if no one will understand me? Or will I choose fear and remain silent?

          “I mean.. you never ask any questions”

          Yeah… I think our definitions of “learning” may differ a little bit.

          Anyway, that’s one example. What did you learn?

          1. Why the fear of speaking? Are you afraid to be misunderstood?

            There are many ways to learn. Questions, if something is not clear, are one such way. Like I asked you above. You probably think I mean questions about various topics discussed here. Not just. Questions that want to get clarification are also necessary.

            But you tend not to ask any. As if you understand perfectly the meaning of everything people say ( not just me, you do the same with others).

            I ask if something is not clear. Is everything always clear to you?

            As a result, it is never a dialogue, but you preaching. I also preach, but in the articles. In dialogues – I interact, be it harsh, laughing, discussing, ironic, fighting.. it is still a dialogue.

            “What did you learn?”

            Not ‘did’, what do I learn. I learn about various ways in which people process thing. And how they express themselves, any obvious misunderstandings as a result of specifically communicative differences.

            I learn factual info of course, although that’s mostly from private communication resulting from emails.

            I learn where in the process people are, and whether I am clear for their specific understanding.

            I learn to express myself more concisely when it is especially required with regard to any questions.

            I learn computing from managing this website.

            There is s tonne more I am learning here.

            2.5 years ago I would’t have been able to do many things I can now.
            Hope that answers it.

            P.S. Neither do you answer questions haha! You haven’t answered my previous question.

  5. @kutkatt

    I think you are truly amazing.

    Thank you for the lesson in humility and adulthood.

    Post away; your frustrations are the frustrations of millions. Someone might resonate and learn from them.

    🙏 respect

    1. Thanks, Tano. 😉
      Damn, it’s really cool to see that what I say can have an effect on people. You once said something along the lines of some people have an overblown sense of importance, and some (me) have the opposite. I can remember feeling a sense of surprise at cars stopping when I wanted to cross the street. “Wow, they see me and they are stopping to let me cross.” And now it’s the same type of feeling.
      Like an acknowledgement that I exist, and I have an effect on the world around me by being somewhere, saying something.. That is for me not an obvious thing, and being aware of this is an empowering feeling. Also it makes me aware of what a responsibility this fact carries with it.

      1. I meant every word, K.

        I may write more on the subject of ego loss and ego gain. Folks believe it is the same details in the process for everyone, but starting points are so vastly different for people that it makes sense to outline those differences.

        The case of ‘one size does NOT fit all’.

        I absolutely get what you are saying. In the past I could say the same about myself.

      2. I’ve never felt that way. I was quite strong willed since childhood. However I was naive. I loved people, trusted them. Many have broken that trust to pieces. I no longer know who I am. I can be a control freak, especially when I’m afraid to be abandoned. My mind is mostly occupied with myself. It’s like a hurricane, shit comes back at every day, I struggle to get a grip.

        I have no idea what you mean by ”wow they are stopping for me”. I can’t even imagine… for me if I have first, I attempt to make them stop. They’re dicks if they don’t follow traffic rules. What does get me each time, is that I am amazed being an organic being, instead of rock for example. And how it can feel so distant, how I can totally forget that I am an animal of this earth, how I can forget my mortality and just feel so much like ME. So familiar with me. I see my flesh, muscles, veins each day, and yet, each time I bleed I am amazed.

        1. “I am amazed being an organic being” If you look closely, you will see that you are not the body, you are not the “organic being”, but you are the consciousness/spirit produced by your body. You are not atoms, not even your brain’s atoms, you are the consciouness produced by your body/brain. You know that the body will die, but you cannot know if the “spirit” that you are, produced by that body, will die or not. As far as I’m concerned, if someone asks me if I will die when my body dies, I say : I don’t know. (That was not always my answer. When I was younger, I was convinced that “me” dies with the body. Today, I say : I don’t know, maybe, maybe not) Science can’t even tell how the brain produces the consciousness. The “hard problem of consciousness” as some say. So you are right : “being oneself” is amazing. This body is a mystery, life is a mystery, and death is just an idea, a word. Death by definition cannot be experienced, death being the absence of experiences. So just live, there is nothing else to do. 🙂

          1. ‘This body is a mystery, life is a mystery’

            Not all of it, there’s a lot of things we do know.

            ‘Death is just an idea, a word’

            That word points to something very real and observable. To me, it looks like you are sugar-coating death to make it more palatable.

          2. if someone asks me if I will die when my body dies, I say : I don’t know.”

            You need to ask those who are dead. Oh wait! No one can! And ever could!

            ” You are not atoms, not even your brain’s atoms, you are the consciouness produced by your body/brain”

            Really? Nothing else, just some unidentified ‘consciousness’?

            Where does your shit come from when you are having a dump? Consciousness made it I guess?

            Now that Joanna is gone.. will you replace her in spraying spiritual platitudes like a garden hose – water?

            I guess when Jed said he is becoming less tolerant to bs as years go by – it must be a tendency for us misanthropic nihilists huh.. I concur.

          3. @ Kutkatt

            Hi Kutkatt,

            Yes we know a lot of thinks, but what we don’t know is so much bigger, that was my point.

            “To me, it looks like you are sugar-coating death to make it more palatable.”

            That’s your interpretation, you are free to interpret my words as you want.

            I say : Death cannot be experienced. If there is experience/consciousness in a form or another then it’s NOT death.

            You can only observe bodies die, you cannot BE death. That’s just a fact, no “sugar-coating”.

            @ Tano

            Hi Tano,

            “Really? Nothing else, just some unidentified ‘consciousness’? ”

            I said “me= my consciousness” is produced by my body. So of course it’s linked to it. I experience the world through my body and its senses. My point is : I’m not atoms, I’m not my body, I’m not my brain, I’m an immaterial consciousness. (you can disagree with that but then give me the name of the matter that constitutes the consciousness, not one serious scientific has a clue.) That doesn’t mean that I believe that I will survive the death of my body, I just don’t know.

            “just some unidentified ‘consciousness’?” I never said “unidentified”. I am a totally identified consciousness. I am made of all my identities, knowledges, memories, etc. totally personnal and identified consciousness.

            I like to discuss with you Tano, but don’t make me say what I don’t say. I try my best to express myself the best way I can, using the right words, so please try to not put words in my mouth that I don’t say.

            If you want to think Cédric=Joanna, well, it’s your freedom, You are free to think whatever you want… As far as I’m concerned, everybody is unique, Joanna, you, me,…

          4. “but what we don’t know is so much bigger, that was my point.”

            If that was your point, then I’d say you could be a lot clearer in your communication. I just read what you write. And in your first comment you seemed to dismiss all the scientific discoveries humanity has made with one fell swoop by calling the body and life a mystery. That seems a little arrogant, like you are above all that, though I don’t think you do that because you are arrogant but to borrow Tano’s word, ‘to plug a hole’.

            Death cannot be experienced, but it can be observed, as in; you can see someone else die. Fear of death doesn’t come from the fear of the experience of death, but the fear of all experience and consciousness ending, You seem to dismiss death by saying it cannot be experienced, which is a little misguided in my opinion.

            You seem to easiliy dismiss arguments by saying something along the lines of ‘well, that’s fine, you can think that’. But you never acknowledge the argument given by someone else or actually try to defend your opinion. That way you may seem very open to alternative viewpoints, but to me you are actually very close-minded.

            ‘everybody is unique’, sure, but people can still fall in the same traps and therefore be similar in some regards, even though they are two seperate individuals.

          5. “If that was your point, then I’d say you could be a lot clearer in your communication.” I try my best.

            “And in your first comment you seemed to dismiss all the scientific discoveries humanity has made with one fell swoop by calling the body and life a mystery.” I will never do that. I love science.

            “You seem to dismiss death by saying it cannot be experienced, which is a little misguided in my opinion.” Well, I’m not the first human being to say something like that. Some Greek dudes said things along those lines more than 2000 years ago. Epicure for instance.

            “He argued that most of the suffering which human beings experience is caused by the irrational fears of death, divine retribution, and punishment in the afterlife.[60][61] In his Letter to Menoeceus, Epicurus explains that people seek wealth and power on account of these fears, believing that having more money, prestige, or political clout will save them from death.[60][61] He, however, maintains that death is the end of existence, that the terrifying stories of punishment in the afterlife are ridiculous superstitions, and that death is therefore nothing to be feared.[60][61][68] He writes in his Letter to Menoeceus: “Accustom thyself to believe that death is nothing to us, for good and evil imply sentience, and death is the privation of all sentience;… Death, therefore, the most awful of evils, is nothing to us, seeing that, when we are, death is not come, and, when death is come, we are not. ” (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epicurus )

            I agree with him. 🙂

          6. @Cedric

            “My point is : I’m not atoms, I’m not my body, I’m not my brain, I’m an immaterial consciousness.”

            It is the same as saying ‘This finger is my arm’ You are reducing the whole of you to one single attribute (consciousness), which is not true.

            I am my body, and my organs, and my thoughts, and my feelings, and my mind and my ability to be conscious and my unconsciousness, and my vomit, and my blood, and my ideas, and my writing, and my kisses and.. blah blah blah.

            I am all of what this entity produces. I am all THAT. And all that is equally important, because they all depend on one another to make up me.

            Stop reducing self to one word, which is CONSIDERED immaterial, and yet… even gravity is suggested to be caused by gravitons. Nothing can be ever caused by nothing, therefore it is ALWAYS material in origin.

            Death cannot be experienced. But DYING can and will be, even if it is a very short moment of sudden death. From your piece it looks as if you ARE minimising its significance, but it is the most important moment of your entire life – the passage to your non-existence.

            In short.. words, phrases and ways in which they are put together – have connotations. Kuttkat was correct in saying that the way you put yours together implies dismissing death. I would add that your ‘don’t know’ implies a hidden belief in your consciousness surviving, even when you protest thus.

          7. @kutkatt

            ‘everybody is unique’, sure, but people can still fall in the same traps and therefore be similar in some regards, even though they are two seperate individuals.’

            Just note for yourself… no one was arguing the ‘unique-not unique’ point in the post Cedric was referencing.. It (everybody is unique) was the common red herring thrown into the conversation and distracting one from the main point.

            You will encounter those all the time when talking to people: many red herrings, such as the subtle change of context, making it personal, changing the subject and many many more. Mostly it is done unconsciously.

          8. @Tano

            (about the red herring ‘everybody is unique’)

            Thanks for the note!
            So he kind of twisted your argument, changing into a different one which he then addresses.

            I can see what you mean.. and yea it’s difficult to really cut through someone’s post and address all the relevant points. Some points seem to distract from the original conversation, so red-herrings that completely derail the interaction. That’s probably also why I didn’t feel a lot of motivation to reply to the quote Cedric posted, as it is pretty far removed from the direction the conversation was going in.

            Damn, not much goes past you, it’s really inspiring to see how sharp you are in conversation, something I want to be as well.

            “I would add that your ‘don’t know’ implies a hidden belief in your consciousness surviving”

            Yess, I can definetly see where you got that idea from. Especially because his post has a slight positive taste to it that a lot of spiritual writing has.. and there’s the smiley at the end which is very telling in my opinion.

          9. Hi, I see that you both think that I was using a red herring when I said “everybody is unique”. It was of course not the case but maybe I didn’t express myself clearly. So I will try to be more precise. I was referring to what you wrote here Tano :

            “Now that Joanna is gone.. will you replace her in spraying spiritual platitudes like a garden hose – water?”

            That’s why I said : “If you want to think Cédric=Joanna, well, it’s your freedom, You are free to think whatever you want… As far as I’m concerned, everybody is unique, Joanna, you, me,…”

            So I will say it differently : If for you Tano, what I write are “spiritual platitudes”, if you think that me and Joanna are expressing the same things, it’s your freedom, I can’t do anything against that. If you think I’m replacing her (i.e. my words replace hers and vice versa), ok fair enough. All I can say is that for me it’s not true, what I express comes from within me, I’ve never been a parrot. I’ve never “sprayed” spiritual bullshit.

            By the way, Tano, can you exactly point to those “spiritual platitudes” I supposedly expressed here ? If you were referring to “I’m not my body, I’m the consciousness produced by my body”, it’s not a “spiritual platitude” it’s very concrete and real stuff. I’m not refering to any “transcendance” or “external god”. Maybe it’s bullshit to you, I can hear that and understand that, but it’s bullshit coming out from me and not from a fucked-up spiritual book or teacher.

            Concerning the “I don’t know” about death, I’m not hiding a belief there. I really don’t know. I don’t care if it’s the end of “me” when my body dies, or if it’s not quite the end of “me”. Either way, I’m OK with it.

            Yours.

          10. On the subject of herrings…

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_herring

            I am consciousness” is a spiritual platutude, because it is endlessly repeated by those who believe themselves advanced on the spiritual ladder. Yet… when one starts digging for their true understandings, they always stumble and contradict themselves.

            For instance, you said now it is ‘very real and concrete stuff’, while previously you stated it is ‘immaterial’. Which one is it then, and can you explain this apparent contradiction of terms?

            Anyway…

            PLATITUDE

            n. A trite or banal remark or statement, especially one expressed as if it were original or significant. synonym: cliché.

            n. Lack of originality; triteness.

            n. Flatness; dullness; insipidity of thought; triteness.

            I refuse to explain the most trivial meanings, Cedric. I do realise that English is not your everyday language, but come on…you could potentially look up the concrete meanings of words PRIOR to using them with such certainty, right? It is not your lack, but your carelessness.

            You don’t know if death is the end of you hey… You aren’t alone. There are big cults that will fill you with hope of eternal heaven, despite every conceivable evidence to the contrary.

            If no one ever came back to prove differently after hundreds of human generations.. Not once… and if the human body supports, IS, the vessel of consciousness…and if the human body decays without trace (even bones, given enough time)… it is fair to suggest that dead means very dead indeed, forever.

            But that’s for common sense people. The REAL common sense.

            You’ll find out soon enough. Unfortunately, you will never know, because death is not something we can experience. But we certainly
            die.

          11. “For instance, you said now it is ‘very real and concrete stuff’, while previously you stated it is ‘immaterial’. Which one is it then, and can you explain this apparent contradiction of terms?”

            I’ll try.

            By “very real and concrete stuff”, I mean that I’m talking about my present life, the present awareness right here right now, I’m talking about my present experience of life. The very fact of “being conscious”. That’s what I mean by “concrete and real stuff”. In fact, to me, nothing is more real and concrete than my present experience. (And I assume it’s the same for you, and for every human being on earth.)

            And that very feeling of being alive being me is what I call “consciousness” or “awareness”. And for me, as I said, that’s not made of matter, even though it’s produced by matter, i.e. my body/brain.

            Don’t know if it’s clearer.

            I know I use the same word “consciousness” that a lot of spiritualities use, but can you see that I’m not talking about the same thing ?

            Do you know the “principle of charity”, Tano ?

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_charity

            I try to use it the best I can when I talk to someone, not always easy of course, but if we want to understand someone else we have to, otherwise we can always misinterpret other’s words….

            Have a nice night. (here it’s 11:11 pm )

          12. PS : If you are interested, I can explain to you in details how I went from thinking “I’m absolutely sure that I die when my body dies, no doubt” to “I don’t know, maybe I die with the body, maybe I still live without the body for a short or long time, I don’t know, I’ll see when it happens.”

          13. “I am amazed being an organic being” If you look closely, you will see that you are not the body, you are not the “organic being”, but you are the consciousness/spirit produced by your body.”

            You may want to follow this line of questioning a little further.

            The presumption that you cannot BE that which you observe is a little out dated. Here in the 21st century we call it self awareness and its not magic. I have it. My nightstand, toilet and apparently a few gurus do not. Id hate to spoile the surprise for you but there is a reason why you’re aware of your body and not mine.

          14. “I have it. My nightstand, toilet and apparently a few gurus do not.”

            lol. That’s a good dig at gurus, but I always wonder how much of this is real lack of awareness on their part and how much of it – is spiritual showmanship conducted IN full awareness.
            My guess is both, depending on the individual guru. Some are innocently deluded in their new spiritual robes, others know what they are doing.

            And yet.. very few went all the way.

          15. I’d believe that there’s a certain amount innocence involved which may or may not be directly related to how much one benefits financially. I see those goals as independent. When selling something you have to make it appealing. Things like “you are not the body rather you’re infinite and expansive consciousness” sell really well to people whom are in the thrall of the unknown. When seeking the truth you have to be ruthless and sometimes experience moments of extreme discomfort. Not exactly appealing. I can see why a certain few appear to be a little rough around the edges. If im not entertaining my own bullshit, what shall i do with yours? If im ruthless with myself and my own delusions how am i supposed to treat others? As i see it, the only way to sell truth is to sell a lie. The truth doesn’t sell at all and the chances of someone seeing it before they are ready are slim to none

          16. “As i see it, the only way to sell truth is to sell a lie. The truth doesn’t sell at all and the chances of someone seeing it before they are ready are slim to none”

            Why selling at all?

  6. “I ask if something is not clear. Is everything always clear to you?

    As a result, it is never a dialogue, but you preaching.”

    Do you know that metaphor with two babies in the womb wondering about what’s outside the womb?
    This is what I see when finite minds discuss infinite reality.
    So when I see that a person speaks from that place then yes, I don’t really much care for details. Because it is the place they are speaking from that is the problem, not the words they use.
    I see the futility of such discussions.

    May seem disrespectful. But maybe it’s disrespect for bs and respect for truth?

    The only thing that I see useful to bring into such discussions is doubt. You can see it as “cryptic rhetorical questions”.

    I spent 15 years seeking answers in my own finite mind. Found none. Speak to me from a more real place than that and I’m all ears.

    “P.S. Neither do you answer questions haha! You haven’t answered my previous question.”

    What was the question?

      1. It took you 5 minutes to read my comment, dismiss it and write yours. 5 minutes! But I am the one who doesn’t care to listen what people say?

        Have you noticed that even though I mentioned only one thing learning here, it was about myself? While on your long list there are practical things and things about others. That speaks volumes.

        1. What is this red herring of an argument about time? Five minutes is enough to understand someone’s comment. Do not attempt all the usual discussion fallacies here.

          Learning about who I am – is behind me. Done and dusted. I know who and what I am, two years of intense looking and scrutinizing own existence, as well as the world’s – made sure of that.

          I love this understanding. It harbours no self blame and no self judgement.

          I understand that you’ve been attempting to coax some misery or discontent or despair out of me, so that you could compare it to your own state, but there really is none, can you understand this? The war was over years back.

          Although if I burn my finger, get cancer or become homeless – there will be I am sure pain, mild or severe.

          Stating the dark facts of this existence does not imply suffering from knowing those facts.

          Instead of answering my questions you prefer to deflect them. Instead of posing questions yourself you prefer to talk nonsensical ‘spiritual’ platitudes.

          Maybe you are different in real life, but here – I see a fake. You may see yourself in another light of course, quite understandably.

          So again… why are you here, Joanna?

          1. There is not much room for communication with someone who believes themselves to be done, is there? Anything that is not in their sphere of experience will be dismissed as fake immediately.

            You are sitting in that place where one cannot be touched and daring me to touch you. All I can do is to invite you to look around and see where you are. Based on “it takes one to know one”.

            I don’t need to ask additional questions to figure out where you are, because you are saying it loud and clear. “I don’t experience what spirituality promises”. As long as there is conditioning there won’t be fruits. Glimpses of them is all one can get.

            We are running in circles. I’m pointing to that deeper conditioning in the body that has to be felt first and formost, not understood. I am pointing to your body, you are looking at my mind.
            You believe that everything can be figured out and understood. To bring that attitude to the body is like trying to tame a wounded animal with reasoning. It needs patience, attention, presence, not words.

            In 2 years one can dismantle the part of the iceberg that’s above sea level. Look what’s below water.

            “So again… why are you here, Joanna?”

            I go where my attention wants to go. Sometimes reasons appear in hindsight, sometimes they don’t.

          2. “Based on “it takes one to know one”.
            I don’t need to ask additional questions ”

            No. You absolutely misconstrue everything I have been conveying on this website. Just because I talk about the mind – does not imply I discard the body.

            Humans, just like any other animal, START with the body. They unconsciously obey the hormonal signals the body sends and do not engage their conscious thinking states. Like animals, we are driven by reflexes of hunger, sex, avoidance of pain and discomfort and a pursuit of pleasure or at least comfortable states.

            At some point one has to realise that we have a rational thinking capacity and do not have to be unconscious slaves to the body’whims. And the body knows what it is doing if we consciously let it be, instead of plying it with all sorts of challenging propositions. Its design has been around for 2 million years. Balance between the body and the mind is what normally and sanely is aimed at. The Buddha called this ‘The Middle Way’, or in simple language – all in moderation.

            I discussed these before, and yet here you are, attempting again to preach to the choir.

            “I go where my attention wants to go.”

            This is not the answer. It’s the same as saying ‘Because I want to’. Why? Why does your attention want to go to this particular site, and has been for the past two years? There are thousands of websites out there that would agree with your version of ‘spirituality’.

            So I will ask you again… what are you doing here?

            Try to be honest, for once.

    1. To add…your way of deflecting anything of substance is self-defeating.

      This is why 15 years, and as I said before… you are unable to move and evolve.

      This here is not the right place for you, Joanna. You are looking to stay confused, not what I am about.

  7. ” Just because I talk about the mind – does not imply I discard the body.”

    There is animalistic body and there is awakening on the body level, Tano.

    Awakening happens when egoic consciousness leaves the body. So when it returns, it is not the same consciousness, it is awake consciousness and that makes all the difference.

    So IF we let that awakened consciousnees to return, it starts to purify and awaken the body. Turning it from an animal into a human.
    Not the human we know right now, where the body is the slave of the mind (caterpillar) but where the mind is the slave of awakened body (butterfly).

    IF we don’t, we’re stuck in emptiness and/or developing an enlightened ego.

    “I discussed these before, and yet here you are, attempting again to preach to the choir.”

    You’re preaching too, but you’re preaching while having very little experience on the topic, and yet seeing yourself as an expert in the field. EXPERIENCE, not ideas about teachings and practices. So how else our interaction can look like? You have turned a living process of enlightenment into a philosophy.

    But as you wish, I won’t comment again.

    1. “you’re preaching while having very little experience on the topic”

      The topic was The Letter To Jed. Then, from your serving, it became Body/Mind. As a representative of the human race I can say that I have much experience in the category of Body/Mind: I have both and experience both daily haha!!

      “EXPERIENCE, not ideas about teachings and practices.”

      I agree, and stated this countless times here. You’ve been here for the past two years, have you not noticed that there is no teaching and practices on this site?
      Just me ranting about what I have learnt from being in this world long enough and being pushed into considering at a very painful length its origins and nature.

      “There is animalistic body and there is awakening on the body level, Tano.
      Awakening happens when egoic consciousness leaves the body. So when it returns, it is not the same consciousness, it is awake consciousness and that makes all the difference.”

      Well, nothing ‘leaves the body’. One’s understanding, their perspective, becomes transformed into something global compared to the everyday mind. This everday mind of ours can only see mundane everyday details: performance at work, catching a bus, sexing the partner, taking kids to a school play, buying groceries, discussing politics on and on.

      Conscious intelligent mind rises above and observes things on a global level, the level of life and death. This changes things massively in one’s mind.

      Rises above does not mean floating in the air. It’s a metaphorical expression, do you understand this?

      You would benefit from learning to talk about things in their true context, without the fog of ‘spiritual understandings’. As you may be aware, all ‘spiritual’ teachers have their bodily concerns and failings, because all are just frail humans with egos, weaknesses and desires. Just because they make money on ‘spiritual’ and write lengthy books about ‘spiritual’ – does not make them in any way different from an average human monkey.

      And yes, before you fucking pipe up with ‘And you, Tano, who are you?’.. yes, absolutely. An average human monkey with a somewhat more realistic perspective of the world.

      “So IF we let that awakened consciousnees to return, it starts to purify and awaken the body. Turning it from an animal into a human.”

      I guess this is why Niz smoked beedies, and some famous Tibetan ‘teachers’ indulged in group sex huh..

      :/ Just go, Joanna. You are as blind as a mole. You have ‘ideas’ that are DISCONNECTED from what is.

      We are galaxies apart.

      1. “Your interpretation of ‘The Middle Way’ is very ego-friendly.”

        It is not my interpretation at all. The Buddha was a rational man. How do you think his postulates made it into the 21st century? They are universal and very practical.

        One has to come down from the high horse of the ‘enlightenment’ search one day and look Reality in the eye.

        The sooner the better, or else much life will pass by in the fog of faulty ‘beliefs’.

        All my best.

        1. “It is not my interpretation at all.”

          I was sitting once in that peaceful no-self state when anger arose as out of nowhere. There was no ego (as no grasping and no pushing away movements, which The Middle Way is actually pointing to) and suddenly I became anger (not someone angry, not witnessing anger), and then it turned into extasy, love and finally peace again.

          And don’t get me wrong, it is not about getting drunk on the feelings.
          But it’s one thing to go to spirituality, accepting the idea “ego – bad, should get rid of it” and quite different to experience how it seperates one from REALITY. How life can flow when you (as ego) aren’t there. From that no-self state right action, right speech etc. can arise.

          1. Well, you experienced a range of feelings in quick succession, from anger to love. Correct? You also remembered that sudden burst of feelings (as you were able to relate it here).

            What does this recollection mean in the context of this conversation?

            You called this ‘not pushing any aside’ = The Middle Way. But I would call this simply acceptance.

            Acceptance of the fact that as a human being we will ALWAYS experience a wide range of feelings, and there is no point in keeping a fake serenity mask. But this understanding, this acceptance makes one calmer, more balanced, if accepted consciously.

            I hope you can grasp the significance of STOPPING THE BATTLES WITH ONESELF.

            “How life can flow when you (as ego) aren’t there. From that no-self state right action, right speech etc. can arise.”

            So. Is that you how you are living it now? No-self? Right action? Right speech? Is that how you are now, Joanna?

            Just to focus your attention, since you tend to ignore questions..

            1. What does this recollection mean in the context of this conversation?

            2. No-self? Right action? Right speech? Is that how you are now, Joanna?

            I am asking you because I would like you to get back to Reality. I would like you to place all this in the real context of your life, instead of vague general statements.

  8. I see those who are stuck in the “fog” of spirituality as lacking in their engagements with reality on several levels.

    Lacking any tangible qualities, talents, hobbies or otherwise engagements with reality – they turn to “spirituality.” This becomes their niche. But what exactly does being “the enlightened one” in your own mind do for you when you are, say, negotiating a new contract at your workplace or protecting your family from an intruder, deciding where to enroll your children in school ect…and as you sit their and conjure up all the reasons why “no self” isn’t interested in those things – know that this is precisely the reason why you are missing the bus so to speak.

    Survival and reproduction is the only purpose of the human animal. Spirituality or morality of any kind is just a variation of egoic interpretation. Fine and dandy, just not anything “special” as you had so hoped. Just another variation. The spiritual ego is worth exactly – nothing – in the real world. You could just try being a decent person sans the belief systems and basically get the same results/responses from people.

    Also lacking in any meaningful relationships they are untethered to reality and continue to drift further and further into their dreamscapes.

    I can see why you advocate for traveling the world. Its like taking someone who is scared to death of swimming and throwing their ass into the cold, deep end of the pool..

    1. And to complete the thought, I don’t mean to make it sound exclusive to the “spirituality” sector. Lets face it, there are alot of dreamers out there. Which isn’t necessarily problematic in and of itself but the point is that no matter your particular walk of life, the ability to be able to see the reality of your situation is invaluable. Its bigger than just “adulthood.” That is TRUTH for all intents and purposes.

      1. “Lets face it, there are alot of dreamers out there.”

        Oh yes, absolutely. Remember that you and I were such. Nothing is wrong with dreaming as long as one understands they are making things up in their minds (dream), thing which are not there.

        Then, creative people dream things up AND put them to reality, make them real. This is the nature of creation: all around (apart from natural artifacts) was once a thought in someone’s mind, aka a dreamy possibility.

        Then some people do it, make it exist.

        “the ability to be able to see the reality of your situation is invaluable”

        Yes, of course.

        1. I still am a dreamer in a way. Ive just gained understanding in the second part of what you wrote, there that the goal isnt to stay in the conceptualization part of the process but rather focusing on the art of bringing my goals from that space into fruition.

    2. “Lacking any tangible qualities, talents, hobbies or otherwise engagements with reality – they turn to “spirituality.” “

      I understand you are saying that most people do not make spirituality the bread and butter of their existence, and those who do – are simply incapable of anything else.

      I wanted to nod at first and could even place myself in this category: I do not have any tangible talents. I can’t sing, dance, draw, can’t make millions by just looking at the stock exchange numbers or code and think up complicated mathematical equations. Neither would I run a marathon. Sad I know…

      However… most humans can’t do those either, and yet they do not set up spiritual classes and begin to extract the greens for not much work.

      So what is the difference between those without talents who do, and those without talents who don’t? Because there must be a difference, evident in the life choices.

      Here.. haha! you need to look at these for your own amusement:

      “Spirituality or morality of any kind is just a variation of egoic interpretation.”

      followed by..

      “You could just try being a decent person”

      Soo… what is the difference between morality and being decent?

      “I can see why you advocate for traveling the world.”

      I don’t. It’s a matter of personal preference. I left home at 17 and made home wherenever I found myself to be. It wasn’t because I was brave, but because I was stupid, and then it became a habit. But it does open one’s eyes to realities of life, quite significantly I must say.

      To stress.. traveling is not a prerequisite to understanding the world. I mean.. Jed never moved much which didn’t prevent him from grasping the very basics of existence.

      1. “So what is the difference between those without talents who do, and those without talents who don’t? Because there must be a difference, evident in the life choices.”

        I actually dont know because i can’t relate. But one thing that comes to mind is the possibility that the combination of self indoctrination “the enlightenment process, SA, non duality or their own belief in the idea that they have discovered “truth” combined with a following of any kind could snow ball and create such an entity that actually believes what it preaches. Reallly no different than anyone who gains a bit of popularity and success. Maybe it starts out small but they learn how to exploit that to its fullest. Because they are after all still just humans. And well, if you’re buying, there are people out there qith something to sell. Its not until people see the human side of the “god like beings” that the illusion is shattered and the scammer is revealed as a charlatan. Bentinho Massarro comes to mind.

        ………

        “Here.. haha! you need to look at these for your own amusement:”

        “Spirituality or morality of any kind is just a variation of egoic interpretation.”

        followed by..

        “You could just try being a decent person”

        Soo… what is the difference between morality and being decent?”

        There isn’t. You just saw a projecion of my life philosophy in there…i never claimed no to have an ego.

        ………………..

        “I can see why you advocate for traveling the world.”

        I don’t. It’s a matter of personal preference. I left home at 17 and made home wherenever I found myself to be. It wasn’t because I was brave, but because I was stupid, and then it became a habit. But it does open one’s eyes to realities of life, quite significantly I must say.

        To stress.. traveling is not a prerequisite to understanding the world. I mean.. Jed never moved much which didn’t prevent him from grasping the very basics of existence.”

        I never traveled the world but we moved around quite a bit and i was blessed with a pretty chaotic upbringing. Im a firm believer in what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger and an advocate of healthy stress to promote growth in a variety of ways.

        1. Ah, yes, the process of getting into the guru game, but still.. my question was about why some people do get into the game and yet others, who absolutely could, prefer not to be engaged in that way.

          Let’s say I am the case in point in that while I rant and express myself here I have no interest in the following or any commercial activities around ‘teaching’. I consider those a fraud.

          I know a couple of others who have the same attitude.

          “Soo… what is the difference between morality and being decent?”

          There isn’t.

          That wasn’t pointing at your ego at all. It was pointing at an inconsistency of your thinking:

          In the first phrase you say “Spirituality or morality of any kind is just a variation of egoic interpretation”, which kind of implies they are not needed in the spiritual world of ‘no ego’.
          But then you said “Just be a decent person”, which means being of a moral persuasion is good.

          It sounded contradictory.

          “i was blessed with a pretty chaotic upbringing”

          Depends on whether it was good chaotic or bad chaotic. From my experience, in the formative years of children stability helps a lot. Not necessarily always staying put in the same neighborhood or even town, but the stability of relationships and primary caregivers.

          From what I understand you were quite rebellious as a teen.

          1. “Soo… what is the difference between morality and being decent?”

            Morality is a set of beliefs while being decent is more of a natural phenomena is alll i can think of to distinguish the two.

            It could be difficult to define spirituality since it could result in heaping unlikely things together. Someone may have alot of morality in there spiritual belief systems while others may discard the notion of morality all together. Maybe its as simple as your personal preferences and natural inclinations and whether or not those have been washed away by one “spirituality”

          2. “Maybe its as simple as your personal preferences and natural inclinations and whether or not those have been washed away by one “spirituality”

            Close.

            Then the next question would be “Can natural inclinations be washed away by spirituality?”

            Placed in context.. can one become Donald Trump in the way one perceives and conducts life? Or Mother Theresa? Or Usain Bolt? etc. etc. instead of what/who they are now internally?

          3. To answer your question, no “natural inclinations” likely aren’t washed away by belief systems but peoe are influenced by what they believe. So, no i can’t BE Donald Trump but i have his qualities good and bad latent within me if id allow them to surface, greed, passion ect. Everyone does. Thats what it is to be human. Having good and bad qualities. The key is to be aware enough to cultivate and to rid yourself of those qualities of your choosing. Some people have more pliable “identities” than others and can, like a courtier, play a role to suit a given situation. Im one of those. This is just social intelligence. Other times, when there’s nothing pr nobody to mirror, no desire or resistance, im completely authentic. But yes, i CAN be a good person, I CAN be a bad person. I dont deny that side of myself. My shadow sides are very apparent to me. Dont get the Usain Bolt reference. i could have trained myself as an athlete. My genetics would have determined whether i was as good or better than Usain Bolt.

            Most people have much more room to maneuver than they’d imagine. Id be curious for you to clarify what you mean by “internal states.”

          4. Morality being a learned behavior would be a chosen quality. Hard to say if a human would naturally be good hearted absent of social conditioning. My gut says no.

          5. My guess is that we developed morality as a method of self preservation and the awareness that without it we were doomed by our natural inclinations.

          6. Ill catch up later. Got a WILD baby here lol. Hard to focus on the topic at hand. Think ive said what i can on it though 😘

        2. “I’m a firm believer in what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger..”

          There are exceptions to this in my opinion, this would only apply in very specific cases. I really dislike this expression, and from personal experience I can say that that is not true for me. Now at 25 I am still dealing with the effects of childhood trauma which, for a long time, left me unable to cope with the normal everyday responsibilities like school, dating and friends.

          I think an expression like that needs a lot more nuance, which maybe for you is implied, but I just see what you wrote.

          Your message has this strong air of ‘You can make of life whatever you want.’ Maybe I’m wrong about this, it’s just a hunch from reading your message, let me know. I think we had a discussion about this a while ago, though.

          1. @kutkatt
            @j(

            You two guys are at the opposite ends of the range: humility versus arrogance. See.. in this ‘spiritual’ game, once we understand exactly who and what we are – the self correction happens quite naturally.

            Therefore, this is what I predict for both of you as the years go by and on condition that you both stay open to learning (aka ‘further’)…

            …. J. will grow less impatient, less arrogant, more humane and more humble.

            …. K. will grow more self confident, more self assured, less doubt and less looking back into the past.

            We all are moving towards the centre. Some will achieve the balance, some will get close and some never will. All depends on conscious intelligent awareness of self and the world.

          2. Your comment almost sounds a little derogatory towards me. I felt a little negative emotional jolt while reading it, my little snowflake feelings got hurt a bit. Doesn’t matter, it’s interesting if anything, thought I’d share that.

            We can agree to disagree, yeah no problem.

          3. @K.

            “Your comment almost sounds a little derogatory towards me. I felt a little negative emotional jolt while reading it, my little snowflake feelings got hurt a bit. ”

            That’s good, K. This is how you inoculate yourself against others’ opinions about you. This, if you allow yourself some exposure to what you perceive is negative towards you – will give you the backbone.

            Have at it with J.

          4. Hahah, man I’m really enjoying this conversation.

            My first reply I was trying to be really nuanced, and almost dismissive of those negative feelings I felt. But then I eventually ended up expressing it anyway, which is more close to how I really felt. I’ve been noticing lately that I have a growing feeling of belief in my own judgements, which are very often really good. And it’s coupled with the fact that I’m willing to admit faults, and considering wether I made one, which is a good combination in my opinion.

          5. Well, you are being thoughtful, which is always good. Now you need to grow a thick hide.

            Another’s words cannot hurt and kill, this is just a bullshit excuse for snowflakes of all origins to justify being wimps.

            Weapons hurt and kill.

            Consider that.

            I will tell you what happens when you get to learn your real nature (as in what moves you, what you hate, what you love, what annoys you, what feeds you internally, what makes you shout and what makes you sing and cry – this is your nature)…

            so hmm.. what happens once you learnt who you personally are.. no words can affect that.

            Because it goes like this.. someone tells you you are stupid.. and if you ARE stupid, you will just say “Yes, that’s true”.

            Or someone tells you “You are wonderful in how you make everyone feel safe around you” And you know it is true, so you will say “Yes, thank you, I know”.

            Or if someone tells you “You are such a great manager, you know exactly how to deal with people” And you know it is a lie and you say “Well, that’s not true. I suck at managing others”.

            so on. Nothing can hurt you, because you KNOW what is true (and then it is OK) and what is not true (and then you correct it).

            But you do need to get to know yourself inside out.

          6. Do you get angry when you tell your victim story? I know i used to. It used to piss me off getting a raw deal. Im not privileged. Adversity MADE THIS.

            The question is what are YOU going to do about it? Anger is one level above sadness because it usually initiates action. One level higher than that is getting results. Getting results increase confidence and so on and so forth.

          7. Well I can get angry at times. Not because of the fact that some shit happened to me (used to but not anymore), but because I am sick of the way this influences my behaviour. The effects this had is that I am constantly walking on egg shells, scared of upsetting people and the belief that in the core I am a shit person, constantly having my guard up.

            Recent example I can give is that I was hanging out with a girl, but everytime I was too scared to take it further, And I just played it very safe. Now looking back I can clearly see that I was holding myself back, and that makes me really fucking angry. The anger is a good thing, though in my opinion, because it helps to change it.

            I’ve changed a lot over the past couple of years ago, and all those behavioural patterns are a lot less already.

          8. Yeah i guess the personal responses to adversity will differ. I have a strong drive to overcome. It seems to me that you’ve taken on some shame somewhere along the way, as if you somehow blame yourself for the things that happened and believe yourself to be “shitty at the core” because of it.

            I think this has alot to do with your own personal development. Building a healthy and balanced ego is a part of raising your consciousness. We run into trouble if we are trying to rid ourselves of ego before we’ve even developed one. The egoless state people move into from adulthood is different from having no opinion, no stance, no personality, no personal boundaries, no rights, no identity, no name, no reputation, no desires, no goals. The high egoless state is ego-less in the sense of being compassionate, kind, wise, free, untroubled, un-needy, etc. Giving up your desires because you don’t believe you can reach them is different from giving up your desires because you have already reached them or simply dont need them.

            I understand now the “walking on egg shells” part of you expression. In shamelessness you do not always have to censor what you say, you can speak freely and spontaneously. The motivation to be liked and accepted (which paradoxically leads to you not being liked) is replaced with the motivation to think, say and do what feels right and good to you.

            Like Ness or Tano was saying, as you develop a more authentic persona, you find that being criticized is no longer a problem. Some criticism is valid, some isn’t. Do you understand that there is no need to respond to invalid criticism? Nobody is forcing you to react. We are all viewing things through our own unique perspectives. Everyone of them valid in their own right, just some more developed and keen than others.

            Are you very clear toward others in saying what you want? Or do you hold back clarity for the sake of harmony? If so, you are creating the opposite of harmony. You are creating chaos. Harmony is created when you are clear. When and if our thinking, feeling and speaking are aligned.

            I dont ask if you’re angry for the sake of anger but like I said im a proponent of healthy and adaptive stresses. I just wanted to see if you were a push over. Dont kid yourself, people like that are eaten alive in the real world. At some point you may get really fed up with your situation. When that happens then you’ll take action to change the course. Its your frustration with where you are that will be the catalyst for getting you where you want to be. But even that is an option and not something you have to do. Im built to tackle challenges. I can’t honestly say that i see alot of that going around so you may after all decide to do nothing about it all all, which as it concerns you – is okay.

          9. No comment? No problem. Much of that was taken from notes to self that ive been putting together for years now. It helps me to process. Or maybe you’re just contemplating the matter. Either way. I was waiting for you to at least call me a hypocrite since that portion i shared with you was when i was enveloped in my own “spiritual” journey and my views have changed drastically since then. I don’t necessarily advocate for ridding oneself of ego. Why should I when I enjoy mine greatly? I legitimately get a kick of of some of the stuff i say and do. Sometimes i even catch myself off guard. 😄

            What’s important though is that i point out how that came AFTER i stopped condemning my self. AFTER I stopped believing that having ego was a “bad” thing. I think T called this “stopping the war with oneself” and that only comes after you relax and settle into what you already are.

            I generally don’t concern myself with others processes and Im not sure if any of that helps or if you relate to that at all but Ive made the attempt to connect with you. What you do with that is your business. My time afforded to be concerned with this matter has come and gone. My best to you.

          10. Hi j(, yea I’m a bit late to reply, hadn’t made the time to reply in the past couple of days.

            “My time afforded to be concerned with this matter has come and gone. My best to you.”

            Hahaha, that made me laugh, because that is so ‘you’ to say something like that. It’s not a bad-spirited laugh though, hope you can see that. I wasn’t aware that there was a time limit on my reply. 😉 I really appreciated your reply when I saw it, and I understand where you’re coming from (at least I think) because it has been a couple of days so it would be pretty safe to say that I wouldn’t reply anymore. It did take me a while, you’re right about that.

            ‘it seems to me that you’ve taken on some shame somewhere along the way, as if you somehow blame yourself for the things that happened’

            Yes, I have taken on a lot of shame. But I don’t blame myself for what happened, it’s that I felt (still a little, but a lot less than before) that I deserved to be treated like shit, because I am shit.

            “I get treated like shit and nobody is helping me, that must mean I deserve to get treated this way and that I am in fact shit.” That’s how that belief came in my mind, I think.

            “The motivation to be liked and accepted … is replaced with the motivation to think, say and do what feels right and good to you.”

            Yes, that’s a good way to describe it, and what I am experiencing now more and more.

            “Do you understand that there is no need to respond to invalid criticism?”

            Yea, if the criticism isn’t valid I think the chances would be pretty slim that I’d get an emotional jolt. But that did happen with your comment because there is some truth in it, I don’t belief in myself as strongly as you seem to. And people that do believe very strongly in themselves, maybe on the verge of arrogance, and are a little rough around the edges get to me very easily, I would put you in that category as well.

            “Are you very clear toward others in saying what you want? Or do you hold back clarity for the sake of harmony?”

            I almost never am if I think that what I would say could be taken badly by the other person.

            “I was waiting for you to at least call me a hypocrite … changed drastically since then.”

            So you were setting me up? 😉 But when I read that part about ego and ego-less you wrote I didn’t really have any particular reply in mind. It’s very ‘spiritual’ talk, and it has very little meaning for me, even though it might have some or a lot for you.

            “stopping the war with oneself”

            I really like this expression. I used to be my own worst enemy, but now I am more and more on my own side. Whenever I now hear people being really hard on themselves I think ‘what are you doing to yourself’, because I know how fucking shit it is to be your own enemy.

            All the best to you, as well.

  9. “Well, you experienced a range of feelings in quick succession, from anger to love. Correct?”

    More like anger recognized itself as ecstasy, as love, and then as peace. Same, same, same. In other words Atman (or rather that particular part of Atman) recognized itself as not separated from Brahman. Brahman recognized itself as Atman.

    “But I would call this simply acceptance.”

    I believe you mean witnessing. If you look closer (experimentally) there is subtle avoidance in the witness, “I see it, but I won’t touch it.” Or maybe “I feel it but am afraid of losing myself in it, if I dive deeper”.
    So basically there is peace of recognizing oneself as Brahman and there is deeper peace. Peace of Atman not separated from Brahman.

    “1. What does this recollection mean in the context of this conversation?”

    You were sharing your understanding of ‘The Middle Way’, I was sharing mine?

    “2. No-self? Right action? Right speech? Is that how you are now, Joanna?”

    Iceberg. Transition. Takes time. Doing my best. Seeing results, yes. Seeing how my external reality reflects my inner state.

  10. You said:

    “You were sharing your understanding of ‘The Middle Way’, I was sharing mine?

    Here is from Pali Canon below, but as mentioned before.. I didn;t read any of the buddhist stuff and not even interested now. However, I got it on my own.

    “Monks, these two extremes ought not to be practiced by one who has gone forth from the household life. There is addiction to indulgence of sense-pleasures, which is low, coarse, the way of ordinary people, unworthy, and unprofitable; and there is addiction to self-mortification, which is painful, unworthy, and unprofitable.

    Avoiding both these extremes, the Tathagata (the Perfect One) has realized the Middle Path; it gives vision, gives knowledge, and leads to calm, to insight, to enlightenment and to Nibbana. And what is that Middle Path realized by the Tathagata…? It is the Noble Eightfold path, and nothing else, namely: right understanding, right thought, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness and right concentration.”

    While it all looks complicated in that passage, it is very simply the pointer to the fact that extreme behaviours will always result in suffering. Extreme behaviours always have a price. Do people indulge? Oh absolutely, in millions of ways. They think it makes them feel alive. Emotions, unbridled, hot, cursing through one’s body without control – is what people love and indulge in. Just look around and observe.

    I say this from personal experience, personal observation and personal insight. Who needs Pali Canon after all…

    ” believe you mean witnessing.”

    No, I mean what I said – acceptance. One accepts the flow of hormones, feelings, thoughts as they are. I accept what I am as a human, as a monkey, as a thinking entity, as a feeling entity, all equally important parts of being alive.

    However… clear death awareness and a long way to this level of acceptance has made me kinda dead, and it is not possible to go back. It is not possible to feel the same emotions, hot , angry, charged as a bull or blue from internal torture or ecstatically happy. All those go.

    But I am definitely NOT an iceberg. I just don’t take own states seriously, and as a result – don’t experience the highs and the lows anymore.

    “Iceberg. Transition. Takes time. Doing my best. Seeing results, yes. Seeing how my external reality reflects my inner state.”

    This is still not the answer. This is STILL posturing and no sincerity.

    You are very afraid of being you.

    1. P.S. He talks about the two extremes one of which was his life with the ascetics whereby they denied absolutely everything to themselves.

      And the opposite, his life in the palace, the overindulgence of it.

      The Middle Way is somewhere in between: everything in moderation.

      1. “I just don’t take own states seriously, and as a result – don’t experience the highs and the lows anymore.”

        I told you “it takes one to know one”. I even used very similar words once: “I don’t experience the lows but I don’t experience the highs either. I’m turning into a freaking zombie”.

        Highs are beautiful. As are lows. Same, same.

        Spend some time sitting in silence, focus on breathing and lower part of your body. Then come back and tell me how you can’t feel highs and lows anymore.

        I don’t care what buddhism says. If one wants to understand Buddha one has to become one. And he wasn’t sitting under his tree and thinking his ass off. There are more comfortable places and positions for that.

        That’s the problem with religions. Guru says: I have discovered that eating meat doesn’t serve one. Followers: Thou shalt not eat meat (fuck with “check for yourself”).

        1. “I told you “it takes one to know one”.

          Joanna, you are not there yet. Not even close. Why you are trying to ‘prove’ to me we are the same – is beyond me.

          “Spend some time sitting in silence, focus on breathing and lower part of your body. “Then come back and tell me how you can’t feel highs and lows anymore.”

          Been there done that. Total bullshit. The only use of meditation is that it gives you a personal time out of the busy lives most people lead.

          “If one wants to understand Buddha one has to become one.”

          hmm.. spiritual platitudes again.

          “And he wasn’t sitting under his tree and thinking his ass off. There are more comfortable places and positions for that.”

          Not if one is determined as hell to figure things out. You will never get what McKenna meant by clawing madness. You see… this same madness was plaguing our Gautama, after YEARS of meaningless meditation and other pursuits in contemporary and ‘spiritually’ fucked ancient India.

          He said “Enough!” Did you even get that?

          God, I have no idea why I carry on this dialogue. You are as closed off as the freshly nailed coffin.

          Enough.

  11. I blocked Joanna for a number of weeks (I think?) so that she could take time to read and process things further.

    In the heat of the conversation it can be impossible to step back and look at things objectively. We often want to respond immediately, which leaves no time for thinking.

    And she needs to start thinking.

  12. Your letter is quite amusing. In my mind you became Job arguing with the aloof JedGod that takes action to make things right.
    If someone would say that she went through a lot of trouble gathering evidence of my life, that I choose to keep secret, and mentioning that she could bring it all to light, but she won’t… because she cares for my wellbeing… I couldn’t care less if her plea is right, I’d run like hell!
    I’m your big brother, I can blow your cover, do what I ask for I am right, but don’t fear that I’ll bring any harm you!

  13. Let me ask you this… do we do what is right – out of fear?

    I do care for Jed’s well-being, correct. But I also care for the well-being (truth, in my lingo) of those clueless children who get caught in the net, both of Jed’s and Kenneth’s creation.

    It is simply not true that one becomes completely indifferent. One becomes what they truly are, and I have never been indifferent to the lie. And Jed.. he is not indifferent to what is important to him. It is just a smaller circle of importance.

    It is never black and white. What to do… ‘Keep quiet’ was/is one option no doubt.

    1. Which “we?”
      A better question is: would jed do the right thing out of fear?
      My point wasn’t about “why.”
      I can’t believe you really expected to receive a reply to your letter.

      1. “I can’t believe you really expected to receive a reply to your letter.”

        It’s right there, in her article.

        “I didn’t send it in the hope of a reply; I sent this to confirm to myself (and to you, whether you give a shit or not) that the person behind the Jed McKenna moniker is truly not interested in making an attempt to right the wrong.”

        1. as is this: “Hope you’d have enough common sense to respond in some way.“
          if this line was sent to you would you have jumped to reply because, you know, if you don’t you have no common sense? she calls this: no sugar coating.
          from your quote i conclude that jed is in need of some confirmation… yeah, he might wonder if he’s up for the righting the wrong and he needs help, or even worse – he might not even realize he must have a confirmation… too funny, no diabetes danger here.
          but ok, let it be a rhetorical letter, a literary work, a manifest, kind of like jed’s works. or is it the letter of a grown-up to santa.

          1. @Ze

            “from your quote i conclude that jed is in need of some confirmation”

            The sentence is clear: I wanted to confirm and to see myself his level of indifference to fraud. It has nothing to do with Jed in need of some confirmation. Confirmation of what?

            “if this line was sent to you would you have jumped to reply”

            I don’t know about Kutkatt, but I would reply, without jumping. In over two years there was only a handful of emails or comments on here that I didn’t reply to. I replied to worse lines, far worse.

            “or is it the letter of a grown-up to santa.”

            Do you know what sets letters to Santa apart from any other kind of letter?

            They are sincere.

            Do you understand the word ‘sincere’? Or did human realities beat the crap out of you, and now you act out only from human manipulation, like the rest of the cunning monkeys in the human jungle?

            The sad thing is… you don’t even realise any of this, instead blindly following the herd ways of what is acceptable out there. You have a great admiration for those who manage to manipulate others into doing what they want them to do, by any means possible.

            Anything based on sincerity and not stabbing another in the back is perceived as stupidity, correct?

            And perhaps you are correct, and I should have deployed some fake, but effective method of getting Jed to consider the fraud seriously. Any trick, as long as it begets results, right?

            And you believe Jed is not part of the herd??? What about yourself?

            Of course, you can always go back to debating the semantics of his books (I know you have the mind for it, and it is utterly safe) and forget about what makes us human (hint: it is not debating the semantics).

        1. “The sentence is clear: I wanted to confirm and to see myself his level of indifference to fraud. It has nothing to do with Jed in need of some confirmation. Confirmation of what?”
          quote …to confirm to myself (and to you … end quote

          “I don’t know about Kutkatt, but I would reply, without jumping. In over two years there was only a handful of emails or comments on here that I didn’t reply to. I replied to worse lines, far worse.”
          i don’t think i would. or at least it would put me on guard.
          yes, i honestly wonder how much time and energy you devote to this… i know i couldn’t do it.

          “Do you know what sets letters to Santa apart from any other kind of letter?
          They are sincere.”
          grown-ups letters to santa are tragic, they are a vent, and they are as sincere as one is in control of his drives [in lack of a better word].

          “Do you understand the word ‘sincere’? Or did human realities beat the crap out of you, and now you act out only from human manipulation, like the rest of the cunning monkeys in the human jungle?”
          now who’s building idols? there’s nothing special about sincerity, it doesn’t cut anyone any slack, and it doesn’t automatically make one right.

          “The sad thing is… you don’t even realise any of this, instead blindly following the herd ways of what is acceptable out there. You have a great admiration for those who manage to manipulate others into doing what they want them to do, by any means possible.”
          there you go again, making deliberate assumptions upon someone else. do i dare to go into the ‘why’ you do it? no, i don’t.
          you don’t know where my admiration goes.

          “Anything based on sincerity and not stabbing another in the back is perceived as stupidity, correct?
          And perhaps you are correct, and I should have deployed some fake, but effective method of getting Jed to consider the fraud seriously. Any trick, as long as it begets results, right?
          And you believe Jed is not part of the herd??? What about yourself?”
          do you want jed to do what you see as right? yes or no?
          did i say that you should threaten him? or do anything else to him for that matter. what i showed was how hilarious i found your letter employed as ‘skillful means’ (you know, right speech, right action, [and god forbid it, right meditation – not quite related but i had to put it]) to stir jed into action. a view from the other side.
          who is manipulating who?
          well, it doesn’t seem anybody else sees the irony, so that’s that with my mischievous sense of humor and where my herd is at.

          “Of course, you can always go back to debating the semantics of his books (I know you have the mind for it, and it is utterly safe) and forget about what makes us human (hint: it is not debating the semantics).”
          let me do as you do: semantics : the meaning of a word, phrase, or text.
          thamks, suddenly i’m apt for meanings… that is new from you. even though -how else could it be- it’s not the point. i didn’t forget what makes me a human – i never knew. there, i said it, feel better now?
          i’m pretty sure you’ve read more jed than me. i like some lines, how he puts in a new expression the same old stuff. but most of it bores me. the only thing i remember is a chapter where he was running away from the police, most boring stuff but i kept reading waiting for the punch line., the exhilarating revelation… none. i suppose it was a story he remembered as funny – and it was funny if i think about it- but he killed it for me with his literary style.
          so that’s jed to me, pretentious lengthily presentation with an obscured conclusion, only for those who have eyes to see [i guess i’m not that apt for meanings afterwards]… jiddu krishnamurti is dry lengthily presentation with unrelated conclusion… ug was real fun.
          i truly don’t understand your beef with jed. can’t he be just a writer? what’s the lie? even the buddha admits he’s telling lies.
          what more should jed do about that fake jed? why is the note on wisefoolpress not enough? i find it ‘all encompassing’. there’s not a single person on that forum unaware of your revelations. jed mckenna is now a symbol [i think you’ve said it too] and it’s all the same for them – they are served what they sincerely expected. don’t blame the girl for being sexy – show the guys that want to rape her why it’s not cool and how to treat her right.
          actually, forget about me telling you what to do.

          1. You are very bad at reading. Also, most if not all of the questions you pose at the end have been answered in other posts.

            “i truly don’t understand your beef with jed. can’t he be just a writer? what’s the lie? even the buddha admits he’s telling lies.
            what more should jed do about that fake jed? why is the note on wisefoolpress not enough?”

            To me it’s very disrespectful, and lazy that you haven’t read those articles and then you come here with an attitude and ask questions that have already been answered.

            Fine if you don’t want to read them, but then you can’t go about in the way that you are right now. Can’t have one without the other.

          2. “You are very bad at reading.”
            English is not my native language and I miss certain aspects. Let me quote again:
            “I didn’t send it in the hope of a reply … Hope you’d have enough common sense to respond in some way.“
            Explain to yourself what does that person want, or why it came out the way it did.
            “Also, most if not all of the questions you pose at the end have been answered in other posts.”
            Maybe she can give better answers.

          3. ” truly don’t understand your beef with jed. can’t he be just a writer? what’s the lie? even the buddha admits he’s telling lies.”

            True, you don’t. This could be because your standards of what it means to be human are a tad low. You accept the lie, swallow it without questioning, even praise it. The Buddha lied huh? Is that a good excuse then? To continue to lie BECAUSE the Buddha lied? What the fuck is wrong with you and your mind?

            But do not be troubled by this. The world is full of ‘you’s, you are in good company. It starts with accepting little lies at first, perhaps, when one is still a child. Then it continues, into the adolescence and further on, into adulthood and maturity. Then people get all depressed and blame the world for all the ills.

            Look in the mirror. You have accepted the lie, and then you too lied, whether knowingly or unknowingly.

            “there’s not a single person on that forum unaware of your revelations”

            Not true. Read the interactions and see for yourself. It works differently to what it used to be: Ken simply asks people to write to him privately now (he hardly ever did that before this website); once the newbies do – they tend to disappear from the forum. Why? Because now they are paying the fees and doing his ‘courses’ on manifesting and all other such b.s. In the past the condition was that people on the course are not supposed to write on the forum. This is how they are getting trapped. If there was a definite name of the guy on Wisefool Press, prominently displayed on all pages, then Jed’s fans who visit the Wisefool Press website – would see the notice and would know that The Invisible Guru forum is a fake.

            Whatever they are going to learn to ‘manifest, but it certainly manifests Kenneth a hunky lifestyle in SEA.

            You are blind and not very honest. Sorry.

            “actually, forget about me telling you what to do.”

            Done.

          4. “True, you don’t. This could be because your standards of what it means to be human are a tad low”
            From time to time you restate your opinion on humanity, ‘talking animals’ or something like that, also the fact that it cannot change. It helped with lowering my standards.

            “You accept the lie, swallow it without questioning, even praise it. The Buddha lied huh? Is that a good excuse then? To continue to lie BECAUSE the Buddha lied? What the fuck is wrong with you and your mind?”
            The Buddha lied, he “sugar-coated” without which few would have ever taken the path [at least that’s what is written], just like the mothers lie to their children. Conmen lie, politicians lie, advertising lies. I’m pretty sure Jed admits in some form to telling lies – UG wondered himself about the crap he uttered.
            The deathbed Jed truth revelation you ask for will be Jed connected to life support not being able to utter a single word. It would be a lie if he would utter it beforehand.
            You say it like there’s a fundamental lie up the core of my ass. You keep mention it, but that’s all. All your mentioning it in your characterization of me is done for pejorative purposes.

            “But do not be troubled by this. The world is full of ‘you’s … Then people get all depressed and blame the world for all the ills.”
            Good for you if you are not depressed.

            “If there was a definite name of the guy on Wisefool Press, prominently displayed on all pages, then his audience would see and would know that The Invisible Guru forum is a fake.”
            This is ridiculous. Have you seen the packs of cigarettes lately? With the pictures of dying people and bold font warnings? Let me tell you: all the smokers of the world are laughing at this! If Wisefool Press did this it would actually promote the igf.

            “Whatever they are going to learn to ‘manifest, but it certainly manifests Kenneth a hunky lifestyle in SEA.”
            Good luck to you if you believe that a warning on Wisefool Press will prevent those people from learning the fine art of manifesting.

            “You are blind and not very honest. Sorry.”
            I’m blind or I have nothing to see.

          5. “The Buddha lied, he “sugar-coated” without which few would have ever taken the path [at least that’s what is written], just like the mothers lie to their children. Conmen lie, politicians lie, advertising lies. I’m pretty sure Jed admits in some form to telling lies”

            You are repeating yourself. Yes, people lie irrespective of their position in life, and you pitch this as acceptable and something to become too.

            But just because the majority does something – you don’t have to. Yet here you are.. defending lies, and cannot see this.

            Ze, you are effectively saying to me it is absolutely OK to be a lie and to live a lie, and that, too, is a lie. Which is why I said to you that you lie and cannot see it. Do I have to be following the majority? Is that the rule in life?
            I know there are consequences for not following, but I accept that. To me the right action does not come with pre-conditions. It is right or it is not, there are no degrees in the same way there are no degrees of abuse: one abuses or one does not.

            So it doesn’t matter how many people will stop supporting Ken after having seen Jed’s disclaimer, if any. What matters is to see that Jed is capable/not capable of that right action: an unambiguous disclaimer in this case.

            Those already involved with Ken – will not give him up, correct; they have developed an attachment; people are capable of getting attached to the most despicable characters, and Ken is not even that despicable. But those who are new to Jed and his writing – could be spared the shit.

            You disagree. OK. Just don’t storm in here with petty arguments when all you want to say is that you disagree.

            I keep saying that an adult discussion will always receive an adult response from me, and you don’t have to agree with me on anything. You just have to say you disagree, and give your reasons why.

            Just to remind you of what you said initially. Look at this and tell me this is an adult entry:

            “Your letter is quite amusing. In my mind you became Job arguing with the aloof JedGod that takes action to make things right.
            If someone would say that she went through a lot of trouble gathering evidence of my life, that I choose to keep secret, and mentioning that she could bring it all to light, but she won’t… because she cares for my wellbeing… I couldn’t care less if her plea is right, I’d run like hell!
            I’m your big brother, I can blow your cover, do what I ask for I am right, but don’t fear that I’ll bring any harm you!”

          6. “English is not my native language and I miss certain aspects.”

            You never expressed that you didn’t understand what someone meant when they wrote a certain thing. Therefore I assumed that you understood what you read, but then your intepretation of certain things seem very off, that’s why I said you are bad at reading. I’d think that someone who didn’t really understood what they read would ask more questions about what someone meant.

            ““I didn’t send it in the hope of a reply … Hope you’d have enough common sense to respond in some way.“
            Explain to yourself what does that person want, or why it came out the way it did.”

            Here’s my interpretation. Tano assumed she would not receive a reply, because so far the only thing that has been done is a short disclaimer on the Wisefool press website. The letter is very forceful, if Jed would be willing to reply, then certainly this would prompt him to do so. Tano did not expect a reply, but she was not 100% certain of this, though. To confirm to herself that last little bit she sent a forceful letter, which did not receive a reply, which confirms her assumption. I see how the two statements clash, on a surface level, but when I look a little deeper it’s not that hard to see the reasoning behind it, or at least my idea about what the reasoning behind it is. If I wanted to confirm this to myself I’d ask Tano, ask not accuse.

            “Maybe she can give better answers.”

            The way you stated the questions makes it seem like you have not read the answers she has already given. If you want better answers then ask questions about the answers she has already given, not just restate the question itself.

          7. “Tano did not expect a reply, but she was not 100% certain of this, though.”

            Yes. Also, by ‘respond in some way’ I was thinking that perhaps Jed would consider changing his lame disclaimer to something more prominent, noticeable and pointed. He didn’t need to respond to me directly for that.

            I didn’t expect a reply. When people lie – they are not inclined to communicate with those who catch the lies.

            By not engaging Jed only confirms that his position is not as clear cut and clean as it seems from a distance. I was clear in what I asked of him. He COULD have chosen to engage, as I have some ideas as to what could have been done regarding the forum.

            He doesn’t care, because it does not affect him directly, perhaps even benefits him.

            Well… they all talk about maturity and lack of fear, but when it comes to it… head in the sand is the solution of choice.

          8. @Tano

            “To me the right action does not come with pre-conditions.”

            Yes, I agree on that. Take right action, because it is the right action. If there is an underlying reason for a certain action, then it is not right but manipulative, even though on the surface it might seem right.

          9. Yes, the right action comes from within, like a call to duty.

            It does NOT mean. however, that this action would be considered ‘right’ by everyone. This is because what comes from within for a serial killer (sorry to use that as a n example, but it works) is different to what comes from within for me.

            In this particular instance, the right action is not connected to morality per se.

            For me – yes, because I still have within me the call to attempt to remain above my animal origin.

            For a serial killer the right action is to kill. This is the inner drive, and they will follow it regardless of any moral considerations. I would stress that any serial killer would know that what they are doing is morally reprehensible. But they would do it anyway, because it is ‘right’ for them.

            The right action depends on what kind of person one is. Two sides..

            Is it right for you personally?

            Is it right in the bigger picture of moral implications of your actions?

            Highly conscious people (the TRUE higher consciousness) would choose the latter IN FULL AWARENESS.

            In other words.. maybe I too want to kill. Rampage can be surprisingly satisfying, and god knows there were people out there who did much harm to me and to others.

            But I never will. I choose not to go down to the level of an animal.

            I am not a ‘goody-two-shoes’ by any stretch of imagination. But I do consider the impact of my actions against my inner compass.

            Many have a faulty or broken inner compass, and preaching such as Jed’s doesn’t make matters easier. Morality is not about not having different sexual partners or donating money to charity.

            Morality is about not harming another. that’s all. Why people have an issue with that – is beyond my reasoning. Maybe they are wired to harm. I don’t know.

          10. I said ‘right action’ with the morality being implied. But I see what you mean, that right action is different for everyone, and the way I said it leaves it open to interpretation.

            I like your definition of morality, simple and clear.

  14. @kutkatt

    “all latent/unconscious belief about own significance were screaming.
    That’s what I think you are talking about”

    Not just insignificance, but all other uncomfortable truths that people want to push in the back of their minds.

    … meaningless of life in general
    … 100% mortality of everything alive
    … own pitifully short lifespan
    … being a primitive animal at core
    … no one giving a shit about your life
    … societal lies
    … domination of the most brutal/dishonest over the weak, but decent majority
    … human tendency to use others for own benefit (various degrees here)
    … blood ties are not always the ties one needs/wants
    … the locust-like greed of humans ready to destroy everything for own purposes
    … dominance of money as the regulator of human relationships and status

    Shall I continue?

    Looks pretty hard and depressing, but really.. truth will set you free (to a point; no one is completely free from the above).

    Truth will also make you dead.

    Do you really want it? No one in their sane mind wants it. One ‘gets there’ only if they have no choice. I didn’t want it; I had no choice.

    1. Goddamn..

      “Do you really want it?”

      No, I just want to feel happy, safe, free.. But I don’t think I have a choice either.

        1. Because I can never get stuck at a particular level, I start asking questions and then see it in a different light, for what it really is, just more bullshit. I never found something real, and when it doesn’t feel real I can’t stay there. I have to move on to something else.

          1. OK. You have an internal drive to get to the real.

            That may work and may produce the results, especially if combined with the life fucking you over in some way. That stops people from just playing with concepts and makes them reaalllly focused.

            Of course, in the end you will see that apart from a massive change in perspective and acquiring deep understanding of this Reality- you gained nothing, and Reality around you is still the same.

            But the way you VIEW it – would have changed forever. That in itself leads to different life choices and as a result – a change of your Reality and life.

            Hehe.. that’s how it goes. No magic.

          2. “you gained nothing, and Reality around you is still the same.”

            Yea, it’s pointless, but I can’t not do it. I can’t not ask questions and be content where I am at, without fully understanding what is real.

        1. I am not there yet, where I want it. But that will probably change, as that is the only real thing, there is nowhere else to go. But now, I still have fantasies about what I’d like, where I’d like to be etc.

          1. Yes. ‘Where I’d like to be’ is definitely a fantasy.

            Look at where you are now. This is the first step to figuring out where you’d like to be in life, but NOT in a sense of Reality.

            In other words… one can set themselves goals, sure. But it is still within the illusion… until it is not, and then one can set themselves goals.

            Haha, confusing, I know. Shit.

  15. “In other words… one can set themselves goals, sure. But it is still within the illusion… until it is not, and then one can set themselves goals.

    Haha, confusing, I know. Shit.”

    “Between the acting of a thing and the first motion, all the interim is like a phantasm or a dream.”

  16. @Cedric

    “By “very real and concrete stuff”, I mean that I’m talking about my present life, the present awareness right here right now, I’m talking about my present experience of life. The very fact of “being conscious”. That’s what I mean by “concrete and real stuff”. In fact, to me, nothing is more real and concrete than my present experience. (And I assume it’s the same for you, and for every human being on earth.)”

    And so you called all that “I am consciousness”, when you wanted to say that you are conscious.

    “And that very feeling of being alive being me is what I call “consciousness” or “awareness”. And for me, as I said, that’s not made of matter, even though it’s produced by matter, i.e. my body/brain. ”

    Sure consciousness is not made of matter. It is a word that describes a phenomenon, thus, it cannot be made of matter. Let’s say the word ‘death’ also describes a phenomenon, and that, too, is applicable to humans, but yet, it is immaterial.

    Phenomena are immaterial, but when one says “Consciousness is immaterial” it is misleading IF you don’t qualify it with a further explanation.

    It is misleading because it gives your readers the impression that you are talking about something akin to ghosts: immaterial, imaginary and (the most important falsity) existing as a separate entity.

    Why does that happen? The tricky nature of the human mind. Most explanations about non-concrete things can be interpreted in a few ways. Since consciousness is a contentious and poorly understood issue, most people will attempt to interpret anything said about consciousness – in a mystical way.

    Subsequently, anything related to discussion of consciousness becomes shrouded in ‘spiritual’ fog. Just like any conspiracy theory would.

    P.S. Thanks for the offer of an explanation on why you think that you may never die (that’s essentially what you are suggesting). There is no need: you will die, and the clock is ticking.

  17. “And so you called all that “I am consciousness”, when you wanted to say that you are conscious.”

    Yes. What I am is that very conscious phenomenon. Saying “I am conscious”, using the adjective “conscious” is a bit misleading because it implies that “conscious” is just one of the many attributes of “I”. But to me ‘conscious’ is not just one of the attributes of “I”, it IS “I”, ALL of “I”. That’s why I use the noun “consciousness”. “I” = “Consciousness”.

    I understand your objection, it’s a logical objection : “you are your body too ! It looks like you are throwing it away !” Here is the crux : The body and me are linked, the body creates me, produces me, but what I am is not the body. When my hand touches my leg, I’m not the hand or the leg or both, I’m the feeling, the sensation, the conscious sensation “my hand touches my leg”. It may look like it’s the same thing, but no, I see a clear difference.

    If someone shoots me in the head, and a doctor says “Cédric is dead”, the body would still be there on the floor but I would be gone, I would be dead (in the case nothing survives the body even for a little period) (By the way, I’m not suggesting that I will never die. I just say I don’t know. No knowing doesn’t mean that I’m suggesting something. Maybe the death of the body is the end of everything, maybe not. That’s all I’m saying. )

    Here and now. My conscious experience IS me. And the body is the way, the tool, the medium through which the experience happens.

    I see my body, my body doesn’t see me.

    I know that may seem very strange, but I wanted to share that here. Thanks for having given me the opportunity to share it. 🙂

      1. Well, “me” aka “the consciousness I am” is intrinsically unique. “me” is uniqueness in itself. Your “me”, the “me” of the stranger that is passing in the street, every “me” reading those words, the 7+ billions “me”s living on this planet ARE intrinsically unique.

        There is even nothing to add to that, because even without memories, without identities, the fact of being is unique.

        My point is that “me/I” is the conscious phenomenon, not the body producing that conscious phenomenon.

        What happens when I go to sleep ? Well, when I sleep, I “die”. For several hours, I do not exist anymore, my body is still there, fully alive, still breathing but “I” is gone. To me “death” is nothing other than that. And in the morning, when consciouness returns, I return, I’m back.

        Some people say they have “lucid dreams”, they say they are sometimes conscious while dreaming, they know they are dreaming and they can even control their dream. Is that true or not ? I don’t know. Maybe they all lie, maybe it’s just true. I personnaly never had a lucid dream. All I can say is : maybe it’s true, I just haven’t experimented that myself. The person that is having a lucid dream is present in his dream because consciousness is present in his dream. “me” = “consciousness”. As far as I’m concerned, I am conscious of my dreams only when I wake up, when I am awake. I remember them, but I wasn’t there, when I sleep I’m just “dead”. 🙂

        I have the same position towards NDE’s. I never had an NDE. I’ve listened to dozens (maybe hundreds) of persons talking about their NDE. Some of them say “I’ve seen my body from above, I’ve seen things I couldn’t have known through my body senses, for instance I’ve seen what was happening in the room next the one my body was lying so called dead (cardiac arrest, no more oxygene in the brain)…” Maybe they are all lying, it’s a possibility, or maybe it’s just true,… That’s why I say : I don’t know. Science is currently studying NDE’s not only on the hypothesis that the brain is “hallucinating” but with the hypothesis that it’s real. I’m thinking about the work of Sam Parnia for instance and his study “AWARE”. He is a real scientific taking that hypothesis seriously.

        As far as I’m concerned, I don’t know if it’s true or not, I never had an NDE or an OBE. Maybe some people have experiences after the body dies, and other people have not. The same way some people have “lucid dreams” and other (like me) have not. I personally don’t care if I still exist when my body dies. 🙂 I’ll accept whatever comes.

        1. See… it takes quite some push to make you to actually support your ideas with some deliberations. You used to come and state something bluntly, but without explaining why you were saying it.

          Regarding NDE and such.. looked at those, been there, experienced a close call (not the NDE, just the process of dying), got the medal.

          You CAN sit on a fence and nurse your sense of a possibility of survival. Of course. Most people do that and say ‘I’ll accept whatever comes”. I prefer to view the facts. And the fact is – no one survives, and no one comes back to say otherwise, of billions of people that died through the course of human civilization.

          Parnia… over 2000 cardiac arrests and one witness report that could not be properly corroborated… hardly convincing by sicentific standards, and for the hypothesis that consciousness is an entity separate from the body and able to exist independently. While as a scientist he may CONSIDER the possibility and SHOULD.. as a scientist he would also see the improbability of it, but he can play for sure.

          You are free to retain your beliefs, Cedric.

          1. “I don’t know” is not a belief. There are plenty of things I just don’t know, and I don’t replace those “I don’t know” s with beliefs.

            You seem to be pretty sure about “nothing survives the body”, good for you. I’m not blaming you. The only important thing is to be true to oneself. And I think you are. I’m not here to change the way you think on a particular subject, I’m simply here to share my views. 🙂

        2. ““me” aka “the consciousness I am” is intrinsically unique. “me” is uniqueness in itself.”

          Consciousness is NOT unique, Cedric. It is an attribute and so the same in everyone.

          What IS unique in you?

          1. I’ve already answered that, but I will try to rephrase :

            What is unique is my own sense of being, right here right now. That’s it, I’m already unique right there, just through “being alive being conscious”, no need to have special identities, special memories, feelings or emotions ,or a special story (even if those exist too of course, I don’t reject any of those things.)

  18. “I see my body, my body doesn’t see me.”

    You see with your eyes – aka the body.

    Try looking in a mirror or gazing into still water.

    Complex i know.

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